"Prussian Brigades, were they really Divisions?" Topic

IIRC I read that after the reorganisation following the Treaty of Tilsit, the Prussians were not allowed to form divisions so called them brigades as a subterfuge. If this is the case were there specific sub groupings within it that took on role of what other nations would consider as brigades? If so how were they organised and commanded?

As far as I remember (I might err), the original idea of the Prussian king was was to form divisions, consisting of two brigades of two infantry regiments each. Then came the Convention of Paris of 8 September 1808, limiting the Prussian army for ten years, until 31st December 1819, to 42.000 men, allowing amongst this number only 10 regiments of line infantry of a maximum total strength of 22.000 men.

So the brigades were kept, one newly formed infantry regiment disbanded, and from the all the existing, not yet reorganised troops in Silesia only two line infantry regiments were formed.

As the Royal guards could have 6000 men and a composition as the king pleased, one regiment got the title Leib-Infanterie-Regiment and was declared part of the guards towards Napoleon, even though it did not have guard status within the Prussian army.

There was no restriction concerning the organisation in corps or divisions or brigades.

On 5. September 1818, the "Brigaden" were renamed in "Divisionen" of one infantry and one cavalry brigade each.

Found it: 25 September 1807 a plan to form the army in 6 divisions, which form three army corps.

Each army corps was planned to consist of 8 infantyr regiments (4 grenadier batallions, 16 musketeer battalions and 8 light battalions), 32 squadrons and 8 batteries.

The organisation in 6 brigades was ordered on 16 November 1808.

You might compare unit structures using battalion maneuver commands.
Later the structure was companies.
Operational structure was different than administrative structure.

Thanks, but what I'm really after is how the Prussian ‘brigades' operated. Was there an operational command level between ‘brigade' and battalion (I'm assuming regiments were administrative and not operational) and if so who commanded what? Also, we're these defined groupings of units or ad hoc assignments; were the commanders of these already in post or appointed on the day by the brigade commander and if so from where were these officers drawn? Only interested in 1812-15.

TimePortal, what was the operational structure, if the ‘brigade' (or do you mean regiment?) was administrative?

Brigades were assigned units for long periods. Nice thing each comprised of all arms.
Not so sure Regiments were administration only in the Prussian army

link

@Oliver Schmidt – that's a really useful link, thanks. The 'brigade' in the regulations is split into an advanced guard, first and second lines, and the cavalry. What I am trying to find out is are these parts defined in the same way that in other armies the brigades within a division are defined and not formed as and when required from any available units. Also, if these parts of the Prussian 'brigade' are structural are they ever detached to act alone, or did the Prussian 'brigade' always act as a single entity?

Basically, the Prussian brigade was to act as a whole, like the French division.

Of course this could and would be adapted to special circumstances.

In late 1813 the Prussian "Brigades" had one old regiment, one reserve regiment and one landwehr regiment, for a total of 10 battalions (on average). In some corps the 2 grenadier battalions (you got 1/2 bn per regular regiment) were added to one brigade, in others they were spread out. Cavalry were either fully or partially stripped away from the brigade and formed the corps cavalry division, though in some cases one regiment was left per brigade. The guards units and cuirassier were grouped with the Russian Guard and Austrian Grenadiers as a reserve IIRC.

And if you examine detailed OBs for some of the battles in the second half of 1813, you'll find some brigades had subunits similar to WW2 kampfgruppe. As far as I know, the regimental headquarters were both administrative and combat headquarters.

Jim

simple as, the Prussian Brigade was for Operational performance and organization the equivalent of a division, ussually made up of 3 regts of line, reservist or landwhere in various combinations plus a grenadier battalion until eventually the Grenadier battalions being formed into an elite grenadier reserve

The diagrams show:

Firing treffen of two fusilier battalions

Shock treffen of three musketeer battalions

Reserve treffen of grenadier battalion and musketeer battalion

I'd have thought that the "treffen" or "grouping" would be commanded by the senior battalion commander in that line.

A quick look at the orbats for Luetzen and Bautzen show that these "brigades" were headed by Generalmajors – and the corps by Generalleutnants. This might lead one to assume that the treffens are being lead by Obersts, Oberst-Leutnants, or Majors.

These prussian brigades appear to be stereotyped – and permanent – so the treffen ought be treated like other armies brigades and not as ad-hoc formations.

PS The French arranged their divisions in the same way – as did the Russians.

Thanks, especially for pointing me at the Lutyens and Bautzen OOBs, this is exactly what I was looking for.
Thanks again.