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"Flags at Gettysburg" Topic


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Personal logo Dal Gavan Supporting Member of TMP15 Mar 2025 9:51 p.m. PST

From another thread:

Instead I'll make up the flags for McLaw's division.

Which I did, Eto. One thing I should thank Defence for- learning how to be fairly competent when using Corel Draw. Low res', reduced size raster graphic here dalg.id.au/ACW/T_McLaws.jpg. I'll print them from the vector graphic and they'll come up better.

Reference: Infantry Flags; Longstreet's Corps; Army of Northern Virginia; Gettysburg 1863 by George Anderson & Ryan Toews.

PS I should start looking at AB's ACW figures, to go with the flags. One day.

I have all three of the George Anderson & Ryan Toews books, covering Hills, Ewell's and Longstreets corps. While they have a few issues there aren't too many (summaries disagreeing with the artwork, mainly). But that's just my opinion based on limited knowledge of the subject. Are they good enough for wargames work?

Also, does anyone do similar books/booklets for the US troops? While I've found quite a few good photos on the net that I can work from, I guessed for over half the regiments in the division I have already finished (Wright's 1/VI), I'd like to be a bit more accurate for Gibbon's division (2/II). If and when I get around to getting the figures and painting them.

Cheers.

Michael May16 Mar 2025 10:38 p.m. PST

Cool! I'd use those on my miniatures. I'd like to see more. Can you provide a link to the original thread?

Personal logo Dal Gavan Supporting Member of TMP16 Mar 2025 11:03 p.m. PST

Sorry to disappoint, Michael, but it's one of the "discussions" about "Most Overrated Ruleset?" Topic ( TMP link ) that went feral. I'd decided to leave the discussion and do up some flags, for a possible expansion of my ACW collection, instead.

However, if you're interested in the books I used as references for the flags then they're a $5.40 USD download each on the Wargames Vault site:

link

link

link

79thPA Supporting Member of TMP17 Mar 2025 11:17 a.m. PST

those look like great resources.

Personal logo Dal Gavan Supporting Member of TMP17 Mar 2025 12:17 p.m. PST

those look like great resources.

I think so, 79thPA. Good artwork (fairly easy to replicate in Corel- though fonts can be a pain- and print out) and an explanation of what each regiment in a brigade carried. There's a few brigades, especially in the Ewell volume, where the summary doesn't match the artwork. I usually went with the summary in those cases.

I can't say how accurate they are, though. I was hoping someone on TMP could. I emailed one of the authors when I bought the booklets and they were looking at possibly doing the US regiments at Gettysburg, but nothing heard since.

Do you know of a similar resource for the US army?

Ryan T17 Mar 2025 7:12 p.m. PST

Hello Dal,

Thank you for your kind comments about George and my work. I will look at the discrepancies in the Ewell volume and see if that can be sorted out.

Plans for a Union study sort of fell by the wayside given the large numbers of different patterns of flags carried by the Federal regiments. As well, the documentation on Confederate flags is much easier to come by than their northern counterparts.

I also took note of your interest in painting up the Second Division of the II Corps at Gettysburg. This is the same unit that my Union troops are done up as and so I reviewed my original notes as well as looking at the more recent sources I have acquired since painting the figures 20-odd years ago.

What I found is listed below – and I also found that half my troops have incorrect flags. LOL

If you e-mail me at ritoewsxmts.net (replace the x with @) I'll send you the illustrations that go along with the following text.

2 / VI Corps – BG John Gibbon

1st Brigade – BG William Harrow

19th Me – the 19th has both surviving National and Regimental Colours which fit into the pattern of flags manufactured by Evans & Hassall for the Philadelphia Depot. However the National flag appears to have 35 stars in its canton, which would make it a post-Gettysburg issue.

15th Mass – the regiment was presented with a National Colour in late 1862. It had 34 stars arranged in 2 rows of 7, 2 rows of 3 and 2 rows of seven. An accompanying State flag measuring 3½ by 4½ feet was also issued at this time. Both flags were subsequently captured at Petersburg on 22 June 1864.

1st Minn – Although some sources claim the 1st Minnesota carried two flags at Gettysburg, other research indicates only a single badly tattered National Colour was in use at the time. The 1st Minnesota had been issued a new National flag sometime before Gettysburg. Only fragments remain, but an 1898 painting in the collection of the Minnesota Historical Society and a post-Gettysburg photo suggest that this was a flag issued via the Philadelphia Quartermaster Depot. It may very well have had both a unit designation and battle honours, but this is impossible to determine.

82nd NY – unknown

2nd Brigade – BG Alexander Webb

69th Penn – the regiment was issued a State/National Colour made by Horstmann Brothers & Company of Philadelphia in November 1861. It also carried an Irish flag with a green field with the Pennsylvania state coat-of-arms on one side and the other side having a "wolfhound, round tower and sunburst".

71st Penn – the 71st was given a State/National Colour made by Horstmann Brothers in November 1861. The regiment was originally recruited in the Philadelphia area by California Senator Edward Baker and so was nicknamed the "California Regiment". This name was also applied on its National Colour.

72nd Penn – the 72nd also received a Horstman Bros. State/National Colour in late 1861. Since the regiment was recruited from a large number of Philadelphia firefighters it also received a National flag and a Regimental flag purchased by the members of twenty-two city fire companies. The appearance of the first of these is unknown, but the latter had the State Arms on one side and the US National Arms on the reverse. These flags were presented to the regiment in September 1861 and seem to have been carried alongside the State/National Colour. The National flag was returned to Philadelphia in April 1863. It has been noted that the regiment used only the Regimental flag at the Battle of Gettysburg, keeping its State/National Colour out of the fighting.

106th Penn – as the other regiments in this brigade the 106th Pennsylvania also was provided with a Horstmann Brothers State/National flag in late 1861.

3rd Brigade Col Norman Hall

19th Mass – The 19th Massachusetts Infantry carried both a 34-star National flag manufactured by Charles Eaton of Boston as well as a State flag from the same source.

20th Mass – the 20th Massachusetts had several flags prior to being issued National and State Colours in October 1862. The State Colour shows little signs of wear and instead the regiment appears to have used a flag presented to it in December 1861 to commemorate its heavy losses in the Battle of Ball's Bluff as its Regimental Colours. Alongside this flag the regiment carried a National flag of unknown provenance. It can be surmised, however, that this flag was probably of the pattern made by Charles Eaton (Refer here to the national flag of the 19th Mass.)

7 Mich – In late 1861 the 6th Michigan was presented with a stand of silk regulation colors purchased and given to it by Colonel Grosvenor, commanding. One of the stripes on the flag was inscribed the motto "Tuebor". The only surviving National flag of the regiment is in the Michigan Capitol Battle Flag collection. It cannot be determined if this was the same flag presented to the regiment in 1861.

42nd NY – unknown

59th NY (4 cos) – given the small strength of the unit is probably did not carry any flags into battle

Michael May17 Mar 2025 7:50 p.m. PST

That's all great information. Some years ago I started basing my Brigade Fire and Fury command stands with two flags instead of one. Now I'm wondering how many flags a Brigade Command would carry, or should I switch altogether to Regimental F&F and go back to one flag.
I think I'll leave them be for now.
Thanks!

Personal logo Dal Gavan Supporting Member of TMP18 Mar 2025 1:13 a.m. PST

G'day, Ryan.

Many thanks for that info', Ryan. I found photos of about half of the US flags that gave me the basics- the arrangements of the stars in the cantons, and some had some remnants of script. I can only agree- the US flag situation is confusing. I thought the SYW and Napoleonic Prussians were a mess, but ACW US? I understand why you gave that amount of heartburn a miss.

Only half your flags were incorrect? I bought the books last year, possibly late 2023, and found only five of the flags I'd done up for Early's division were correct. All the rest, done by guesstimate, Osprey and hope, were soaked off their pikes and replaced with copies of the designs shown in the book. The basic designs are easy to do in Corel, only the font type being a matter of trial and error. I only do these for personal use, too. I'm retired again and intend to stay that way- unlike the first time.

It was only when I went looking for another division for each side (based purely on their flags in the case of the CSA DIV) that I noticed a few brigades, spread across the volumes, where the summary and artwork conflicted- and even then most of them were easy to sort out. I will admit that I am a bit pedantic about books, probably as a result of being a technical writer and technical proof reader/editor before I retired. Trust me, your booklets are better than the Defence doc's I had to review and edit (it's amazing how poorly some officers and SNCO/WO write- and don't get me started on some public servants……). And some I wrote, too, I admit. I'll email you a list tonight, mate. It won't take two minutes to read.

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