"Sapeur léger bavarois 1809" Topic

Bonjour à tous.
Je prépare actuellement la bataille d'Arnhofen (19 avril 1809).
Au ratio 1 pour 6.

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Pensez-vous que les sapeurs légers bavarois existaient en 1809 ?

Ou bien apparaissent-ils en 1811 avec la création des compagnies de carabiniers ?

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Bernard

Currently without access to either my printed or electronic libraries but from memory no to 1809 & I doubt for 1811, but will check once I have access.

Having now got back to my libraries, I see that I was wrong!

From Rawkins:

"ZIMMERLEUTE In 1804 orders were issued for each company to raise a ‘zimmerman', or pioneer. The Zimmerman was part of the company establishment and performed those normal duties assigned to pioneers, clearing and preparing camp sites, cutting wood and erecting defences either at a company or battalion/regimental level. The Zimmerman of the 1st. ‘Leib' company was to have the rank of Korporal and all other Zimmerleute were to be appointed Gefreite. In the field the company Zimmerleute were normally formed into a pioneer section at the disposal of the column commander to clear roads and supervise the erection or defensive works and bridges.

The uniform and equipment was basically as for the other ranks except that the traditional whitened leather apron was worn, with a neck band and held at the waist by the sword belt. The sabre-briquet would appear to have been of the Austrian M 1765 or Bavarian M 1798 füsilier pattern and muskets and bayonets were of the pattern carried by the regiment. The Zimmerman carried the traditional heavy woodsman's axe as a sign of his status.

In 1811 the Zimmerleute were authorised to wear French style full red epaulettes and red crossed axe and grenade badges on the upper sleeves. The sappers of all companies now wore a flowing red horse hair plume on the raupenhelm. In 1814 the epaulettes and axe badges were abandoned in favour of the same shoulder straps as the other ranks and the korporal or gefreite insignia on the collar."

Johann Cantler image for circa 1811 from Markus Stein's site:

George Nafziger's "The Armies Of Bavaria and Wurzburg 1792-1815" doesn't show Pioneers for light battalions until 1811…

Glancing at:
Geschichte des königl. bayer. 4. Jäger-Bataillons
Franz Joseph Berg
Rietsch, Landshut 1887
Volume 1 (1795 – 1825) link (page 274 is first mention of Pioneers that I can see – 29 April 1811);

Je suis d'accord.
Je ne pense pas que les légers bavarois possédaient de sapeurs avant 1811.
Ce qui explique peut-être leur plumet rouge.
Ils ont dû apparaitre en même temps que les carabiniers. Avec justement un plumet rouge.

Interesting. So prior to 1811, the only distinguishing features would have been the apron and axe they carried? No plumes, nor insignia on the arms?
Thanks very much for sharing!!!