"9 hard truths about the Ukrainian war" Topic

Tango, you live in the paradigm of the last century and the last Cold War. Therefore, it is impossible to explain anything to you… From the point of view of the last Cold War, everything that is happening is absurd. Although in fact, everything is very logical and natural.
A lot more terrible news awaits you. Your world is collapsing.
And it is not the crazy rulers who are to blame. You are simply looking for simple explanations.
But they are not there…

Is this what Lenin meant by "useful idiots"?
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I've seen a few articles from dubious sites that allege that Trump was recruited as a KGB "asset" back when he was a mere New York real estate mogul.
At first I brushed them off as "disinformation". 🙄
I can't be bothered to go back and find a link. I'll leave that as an exercise for the student. You know how to use Google as well as I do.

But at least he's halted DEI hires.

🤔

So some may have a vested interest in people to continue to die?

I for one, am shocked 😳 shocked I tell you! 🙄

Subject: Thread by @nataliegwinters on Thread Reader App – Thread Reader App


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Why John, then you will find this to be plausible as well. 😉
Now he is a "Putin/Musk puppet" and "Has syphilis" . 🙄

"Describing the Republican president as a "fat f---ing slob" with a "beached whale body" on the latest edition of his Politicon podcast, Carville speculated that a purported rash of red blotches on Trump's hands could be a sign of syphilis that has addled the president's brain.

"When you see that condition, the first thing that you suspect is syphilis," Carville raged, noting that the condition causes brain damage in its later stages. "That boy ain't right."
"

Subject: Carville Speculates Trump Has Syphilis After ‘Mad' Zelensky Meeting


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One more thing John, and some others.

We who back Trump and want peace in the Ukraine, are called "Putin's pets", "Putin puppets" and those are only the nice things said. 😉

I look at those who criticize the Zelensky/Trump meeting and peace deal and ask myself, are these the ones I want to be allied with? The ones who gave us everything that happened in the last 4 years 🤮. Because those are the ones who agree with your's and others here, views on the T/Z meeting and peace deal.

Just to list small group and leaving out those from overseas:

Chuck Schumer
Amy Klobuchar
Chris Murphy
Chris Coons
Adam Schiff
Chris Van Hollen
Sheldon Whitehouse
Tina Smith
Joy Behar
Whoopi Goldberg
Joy Reid
George Takei
Mark Hamill
James Cameron
Lisa Murkowski

Not a lot of deep thinkers in that group. The list is much, much, much longer.. pretty much every Democrat, Never Trumpers, MSM pundits and Hollywood.

Subject: Natalie Winters on X: "People who still support Ukraine after that meeting are TRAITORS! Cc: @AdamSchiff & neocons t.co/xNw6a4Z5c2 / X

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Subject: Sen. Lisa Murkowski on X: "This week started with administration officials refusing to acknowledge that Russia started the war in Ukraine. It ends with a tense, shocking conversation in the Oval Office and whispers from the White House that they may try to end all U.S. support for Ukraine. I know foreign" / X

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Subject: ‘Star Trek' Star George Takei Cheers on Leftists Who Crashed Vance Family Ski Trip

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Subject: Disney's 'Star Wars' Star Mark Hamill Defends Zelensky, Calls Trump and Vance 'Putin Puppets, a Disgrace to Our Country'

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Subject: Director James Cameron Says Trump Win Was 'Sickening' | OutKick

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Subject: ‘Dummies for Putin': Democrats defend Zelenskyy after ‘shameful' Trump meeting | US news | The Guardian

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With that group as allies, I think I'll back Vance, Rubio, Trump and others for now. 😉

OPPs another deep thinker chimed in:

Subject: Citizen Free Press on X: "Jasmine Crockett says Trump will 'never leave' the White House. At this point, democrats will say anything. They're scared to death as Trump's approval numbers are holding strong. t.co/LgbdhmGcmd / X


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Keep posting more "Bad Things About Trump".
I'll believe every one of them. 😄No matter how dubious the source. Gumbo Man is just another senile old fart who keeps all balls that fall in his yard and shouts "Get off my lawn!" He has severe Clintonitis.

Ya see, I am a TRUE Republican. A Bob Dole, John McCain, Mitt Romney Republican. And Reagan too, of course. (But not a Bush Republican. Both father and son got us into unnecessary foreign adventures.)(I only support Liz because she stood up to the Orange Man. Other than that, she is Darth Cheney's daughter.)

Trump and his wretched cowardly bitches in da Gubmint are the true RINOs.

We who back Trump and want peace in the Ukraine…

That's the oxymoron of the year.

By the way, the rumors about Trump's health (syphilis, bruise on hand, limping, etc) are as believable as the ones about Putin's health at the start of Putin's War. He's still alive, hainna? I don't believe in wishful thinking.

There are plenty of nut-jobs left and right for us to debate.And in my opinion, this is a hard thing to take a side on.

On the one side, we are sickened by the amount of blood and treasure being expended in this especially brutal war. On the other side, Putin is a totalitarian war criminal who has committed numerous atrocities. And there may be no justice for Ukraine, setting up more perilous situations down the road.

One one side, we have allowed another nation to fight Putin for us and pay the price without giving them enough to win. On the other hand we are turning our backs on a people who took on and exposed the military of one of our principle enemies. They have done major damage to Russia's conventional forces, a positive outcome for all in the West, and we talk about how much they owe us?

Maybe Zelensky should put a price on every Ukraininan man, woman and child they have sacrificed as part of their share in taking on international aggression.

Tort first. Grattan asked me something about Russia in another post. You can read that response that deals with Russia and potential weakness.

Should Russia shell out to rebuild Ukraine. Sure. They have a lot of frozen assets. I did read where the UK was sending more to the Ukraine for the military as loans, backing the loans with Russian frozen assets. So I guess those won't be used to rebuild the Ukraine.

John
We both dislike the Bush's. I respect Dole. I dislike MCCain, Mitt Romney and all the Chaney's, all of whom I view as Rhinos and who put themselves above the country.

You and others speak of Trump as vindictive and petty, which he can be. But so are that group. I would add two current US republican senators to that group one from Alaska and one from Maine.

How dare you use The Great Ronaldo Maximus name in vain! 😉 That man and the loathsome Jimmy Carter, made me a conservative Republican.

I see Trump as an America First Republican. Unlike all the recent globalist on both sides who have recently been presidents.

The difference between us, is I held my nose and voted for the Bush's, McCain and Romney, knowing the Democrat would be worse.

Because I believe a lot of people dont read links posted. I thought I would cut and paste this in this post and another.

"Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky met with Democratic lawmakers before his Oval Office meeting with President Donald Trump on Friday, where he reportedly received advice to reject the terms of the proposed mineral deal, according to Sen. Chris Murphy (D-Conn.). "

Yes I know one Republican was there too, but why would they have scheduled this just before the live conference?🤔

To quote another president: "COME ON MAN"
We all know. 😉

Scroll down half-way – a fun TikTok compilation of "average" American's chiming in:

Zelensky Believed His Own Publicity
They treated him like a movie star. How could it not go to his head?

…The Zelensky myth is necessary to keep hope alive that the Democrats didn't humiliate themselves when they lost to Trump a second time. No, it wasn't their failures. It had nothing to do with selling false narratives about Hillary and Joe, forcing voters to go along with it. This is bigger than an ordinary election. They are at war with the new "axis of evil." And why not? They're the "resistance," after all.

Zelensky's entitled behavior in the Oval Office was proof enough that he believed his own publicity and lost perspective of who he was in this fight. He's not the man who can demand anything from the United States. But who's going to tell him?

Certainly not the legacy media. Not the Democrats. Not Hollywood.

And from Ukrainians who cannot post this inside Ukraine because of State media control:

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The "Trump is God" cult is strong on TMP.

Is Zelensky Mephistopheles, Baphomet or Satan?

I don't feel McCain or Romney put themselves above country. McCain served his country and was seriously tortured for it. Both men put themselves above party and did what they thought was right for the country.

The "Trump is God" cult is strong on TMP.

Is Zelensky Mephistopheles, Baphomet or Satan?

Not a "God," simply a president bringing reality to the light. And Zelensky is a foolish pawn who has sold his soul to the Globalists under the promise of continued power and victory.

I hope he comes to his senses before complete the collapse of his country.

But let me ask you this, since you're a firm war devotee -- what "cards" does Zelensky hold, and how will the EU win the war and eject Putin from Ukrainian territory?

I think the demand that Ukraine repay at least 20X the worth of what they received may have been a major contributor to Z's attitude. I have no idea what is behind that demand, and it may be a clever ambit play for a particular result. But to me it's looking like extortion, or what is called a "protection racket" (I think) in the US- "Give us 50% of your country's natural resources or we leave you to the Russians."

That doesn't make any sense, though, particularly after the efforts already expended on Ukraine's behalf by the US. I'll have to wait until all is revealed.

Yeah -- except what happens next the US has a tangible stake in Ukrainian success, then money pours INTO Ukraine to develop those resources and create a defacto DMZ with AMERICAN CIVILIANS present as another trip wire, in addition to a formal DMZ. AND lots of jobs and money for Ukrainians. The US doesn't operate like China. China would take the concession and literally ship over enclosed slave-labor pods to do the work.

US companies will hire Ukrainians and Ukrainian firms.

And remember this is NOT the final deal, this is the prelude to a Cease Fire followed by longer term Peace Talks and possible agreement, which will define what the DMZ looks like. And then once the heavy lifting is done, Brave, Brave Sir Starmer can send his "boots on the ground" to secure the peace won by Trump.

Something like that worked to end the Korean War, why not this one?

Grattan. I don't like either man. I could give you my reasons, but that might open some flame wars that I'd like to avoid. 😉

I understand your points, SBm, but it's still an extortionist amount of profit for the US, regardless however many Ukrainian jobs are created. On the other hand, I think it may give the Ukrainians more security than they could otherwise expect. So what matters more to Z? Budget or security?

Why the Starmer crack? You've been bleating about the Euro's not doing enough, then when they come up with a plan to do more you pour scorn on it. Or is it that in your book the Euro's (or any damned foreigners?) can never get it right?

Dal I have no idea who this publisher is or which side they support but they have a somewhat detailed breakdown.

Subject: Breaking Down the U.S.-Ukraine Minerals Deal


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Why the Starmer crack? You've been bleating about the Euro's not doing enough, then when they come up with a plan to do more you pour scorn on it. Or is it that in your book the Euro's (or any damned foreigners?) can never get it right?

His plan is cr@p. Cut through all the fluffery and it comes down to Britain will send some more cash now (I'm sure the UK has nothing better to fund than foreign wars), but no troops until AFTER THE WAR IS OVER! The UK will NOT help Ukraine fight, only to "secure the peace" after the fighting magically stops and some miracle peace deal happens. And even then he expects the US to "back stop" them.

Here's a crazy idea. If the UK is sooooo invested in the War, but doesn't want to send its own uniformed military, why not do what America did in the 1930s to help China?

1. Form a mercenary unit -- call it the British Legion
2. Have British pilots and soldiers "resign" from the British military
3. "Hire" them into the British Legion
4. Give the $$ to Ukraine to hire and arm the British Legion with "decomissioned" tanks and aircraft
5. Then send the British Legion to go fight in Ukraine

Hmmm? Or maybe they don't really care…

But let me ask you this, since you're a firm war devotee -- what "cards" does Zelensky hold?

Oh, how about the naive belief that America was once upon a time an honorable country, that valued freedom and didn't cut and run when things got difficult?
However, that is indeed a naive belief, seeing how many countries we have abandoned at the 4 year regime change.
Thinking that Trump would act honorably is a mistake. Look at how many little people suppliers and contractors he screwed over in construction in New York and elsewhere should have disabused him of that notion.
Once a Mob Boss, always a Mob Boss.
Zelensky should have prepared himself by watching past seasons of The Apprentice.

John + 1

Who sustain the treaty from 1994?… Ukraine was the third most powerful nation with nukes… they trust in America and…?

Armand

Oh, how about the naive belief that America was once upon a time an honorable country, that valued freedom and didn't cut and run when things got difficult?

Like we did in, Vietnam, Somalia, Afghanistan

Kim

Thanks for the link, 35th. It explains some things, particularly WRT the costs involved for whichever US firm does the mining. However, it also revealed that the 50% access wasn't just to rare earth minerals, but any future Ukrainian mining projects. There's no estimating what the eventual mined value of any deposit is going to be, so the US is taking a big risk that there will not be profitable returns. But if there are, the profits will exponentially exceed the US' costs, even including the costs of getting the mines producing.

I'm a techie, not a bean counter, so I'll sit out on any opinion until I can understand things better- probably after we see what actually happens.

SBm, come off it, mate. You and I both know that any NATO nation putting boots on the ground in Ukraine, let alone to fight Russia, is as dangerous as playing Russian roulette with an automatic pistol. If the Poms and Frogs even suggested it your government- and most others around the world- would go spare. Add that Putin's touchy enough that even a "Volunteer Force"- which would be a completely transparent ploy and wouldn't even deceive Blind Freddy- might see him hitting Europe in retaliation. ("Warning" missile strikes on Lille and Birmingham, perhaps?) If that happens where does the escalation stop? Nukes, perhaps the full NBC suite?

As for the peace, the US' plan doesn't appear to be travelling too well at the mo', either. Unless your government wants to stage a coup and get rid of Z, then he and his government will have to be part of any peace plan. So while that path is blocked (while various egos unknot their knickers), let's see what the Euro's can put together before we dismiss their efforts. For all we know Uncle Vlad may be waiting to see who will offer the best pay-off to Russia, before he takes the high moral ground and claims victory.

1930's China? IIRC that worked fairly well- right up to 08 December, 1941 (07 December on your side of the IDL).

With the suspension of all aid now this is truely an historic stab in the back.
Regardless of what you might think of the failures/weakness of the past four years, for the world, and that includes all of our enemies out there, that pales into insignificance compared to this apparent siding with the aggressor.
And now Vance insults the UK. And ridiculous tarrifs on Canada.

"Temporary" ban Silurian.

But this and the other threads on Ukraine are going nowhere. Individuals are either outraged at everything he does, or are in it all for the long term results.

No one's minds are going to change.

Just like those of us who said Biden had dementia from 2019 onward were ridiculed and disbelieved………. until we weren't in 2024.

Same with Covid Wuhan lab origin. Covid vaccine not preventing or stopping the spread. Masks were almost useless in stopping the spread. The laptop being Hunter's….. and on and on.

In 4 years one group will be wrong, right or somewhere in between. If we are wrong, the globalist and deep state will be victorious. We are right, the same group suffers defeat.

But this and the other threads on Ukraine are going nowhere. Individuals are either outraged at everything he does, or are in it all for the long term results.

No one's minds are going to change.

👍
Because I am right! 😄

"No one's minds are going to change."

True dat!
But we keep trying don't we? lol.

😂🤣

Yes, maybe we all feel like Cassandra of Troy.

I lost my mind here some time ago, yet here I am….

Had Cassandra hooked up with Apollo like she had promised, maybe people would have believed her.
I really don't know if that's relevant or not… 🤷

I guess we will see where this goes from here. 🤔

From Zelensky this morning:

"I would like to reiterate Ukraine's commitment to peace.

None of us wants an endless war. Ukraine is ready to come to the negotiating table as soon as possible to bring lasting peace closer. Nobody wants peace more than Ukrainians. My team and I stand ready to work under President Trump's strong leadership to get a peace that lasts.

We are ready to work fast to end the war, and the first stages could be the release of prisoners and truce in the sky — ban on missiles, long-ranged drones, bombs on energy and other civilian infrastructure — and truce in the sea immediately, if Russia will do the same. Then we want to move very fast through all next stages and to work with the US to agree a strong final deal.

We do really value how much America has done to help Ukraine maintain its sovereignty and independence. And we remember the moment when things changed when President Trump provided Ukraine with Javelins. We are grateful for this.

Our meeting in Washington, at the White House on Friday, did not go the way it was supposed to be. It is regrettable that it happened this way. It is time to make things right. We would like future cooperation and communication to be constructive.

Regarding the agreement on minerals and security, Ukraine is ready to sign it in any time and in any convenient format. We see this agreement as a step toward greater security and solid security guarantees, and I truly hope it will work effectively."

OVI +1

SBm +1

The fat lady ani't sung yet.

The mineral deal will come about. US companies will work with Ukraine to mine and rebuild their heavily damaged nation. With the US hiring the locals. Bring Ukraine back into a functional state.

Putin will keep the Donbas, maybe a few other bits & pieces of Ukraine. And still hold Crimea, that they seized in 2014. Under the Obama/Biden admin. Putin he could take advantage of Obama … and did … Just as he did with Biden over the past 4 years.

The UN, EU, etc. will have to set up some sort of DMZ. To at least make the Russians think twice before invading again. Which many say that could happen within the next 5-10 years. Regardless if Putin is in charge or not. He's not the only old school Soviet/Commie/Russian still around. Looking to regain Russia's past glory …

The West will have to rebuild Ukraine's Armed Forces too be a much more formidable war machine. They know how to fight, just sell/give them the assets they need. No foot dragging like Biden et al did. While Putin took months to set up along the border. The US/NATO should have started sending massive amounts of lethal assets in before Putin's invasion.
"Peace thru Strength" … that is deterrent …

Looking back like we do thru out history. What happened ?

1) Putin's invasion was unwarranted. He is a predator.

2) The USA under the weak feckless leadership of the Biden admin. Just made Putin's idea of an invasion a good gamble.

3) Tied into that was Biden's A'stan debacle plus his clear mental decline with a 2d Team cabinet only demonstrated to Putin and our other enemies that the US leadership did not have the right stuff. And was not learning from Obama's mistakes nor did the Biden admin's amateur minions.

4) The Biden admin's priorities were based on wealthy, left-wing woke progressive, DEI/CRT, etc., doners wishes. Those priorities were just plain wrong. E.g Too much time spent on Open border policies, global warming, the DEI/CRT-1619 dogma, LGBT+ activism, etc.

NONE of those should have overridden the real priorities.
#1 Protecting the US population …
#2 Not destroying the US economy with the war on fossil fuel to support the questionable Go Green/EV/Global Warming agenda.

Short answer – Putin is to blame for the invasion of Ukraine. And Biden's actions only made it easier and emboldened Putin and the USA's other enemies. Historians in the future will see this more clearly. Without the current biases, activism, etc. from a well-funded media supported minority of Americans.

Some more interesting information today:

Subject: Calls Grow In Germany To Revive Compulsory Military Service – Barron's


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Subject: $840 USD Billion Plan To 'Rearm Europe' Announced – Newsweek


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I must admit that is totally baffling that anybody trust what comes out of the mouth of Trump. A con man, who doesnt pay his bills, and cheats his voters and anybody else. He is babling like deranged person, and cant make whole sentences with meaning. I just saw Trudeau, holding a speech. It was comprehensile, had a point, had it was clearly understandable, and then compare it with trump which has a bigly thing.
O and thank you here from Denmark, which came to your assistance after the twin towers, because you asked, and now you want to invade us? After more dead soldiers pr capita than the USA.

your tears are sweet

Tango01, forget about the treaty that was NOT RATIFIED even by the Ukrainian parliament. It has no legal force.

35thOVI, Zelensky's ceasefire proposal is just an attempt to get a break, regroup, bring in energy equipment and weapons by sea, and most importantly, avoid bombing while he has problems with air defense missiles. A stupid ploy.

So… Ukraine still have the nukes?… what a relief!

Armand

Oh, Zelensky can at any moment build "dirty bombs" and detonate them over Russian cities. There is more than enough uranium in Ukrainian nuclear power plants for this. But, as they say in such cases in Russia: "the answer will torture you")))

Nuclear weapons are difficult and expensive to maintain. That is why Ukraine happily gave them up. And do not forget that this is an extremely corrupt country… Who knows where these weapons could have ended up in thirty years… How do you like, for example, ISIS with nuclear weapons? After the division of the USSR army, Ukraine received 6,500 battle tanks, about 7,000 armored vehicles, 1,500 combat aircraft. Most of them were sold or disappeared.

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Damn that Zelensky for impeding the holy reunification with Mother Russia, led by Saint Putin! How dare he???

Many good points Legion…and the debate over how history will see this era is a good one, full of differing views and interesting what ifs.

I think Biden was a centrist who did a decent job of get us through the pandemic with a strong economy. But his spending drove inflation that only came down near the end of his term..the wealthy made another killing and the working class struggled.
In Ukraine, you and I have the same positions we started with. I still think an overt US-led military build-up on the Ukrainian border would have given Putin a huge propaganda lift before the invasion, blaming the US for de-stabilizing the region and forcing Russia to respond. This could have undercut world support for Ukraine in the early days when NATO sorta came together and the world condemned Putin..

And in the early days, I think Biden did a decent job of walking the tight-rope between material support for Ukraine and avoiding a nuclear conflict. But he failed to give Zelensky enough to turn back the Russian hordes. Legion, you had this right from the start and convinced me.

Biden's declining health may have been the biggest factor in this. But Afghanistan showed me that he was a mixed bag at best, disaster in one region, okay in another, at least for a little while.

Legion your military assessments during the Afghan evacuation mess were spot on.

The over-dependence on fossil fuels will thrive under Trump, not the direction we need. Diverse sources of energy are the best defense against global chaos, IMO. The idea that oil companies will sell their oil to the US because it is pumped here makes no sense to me. It looks like just more rewards for the wealthy oil elites.

I don't think Trump will nation-build in Ukraine. No US business will go there without massive federal US dollars being pumped in. Too big for a Gaza-lago idea. How do you fulfill the America First agenda while spending more even more tax payer dollars in the ME and Ukraine? We are going to need that money for our farmers….

As for woke and DEI, while I think the impact was emotional and over-rated, I am glad it is subsiding. I hope that merit will include everyone this time and everyone should be okay.
I think that turning back to the old Confederate installation names was hardly a number one priority, but lets see how leadership copes with the specific issues. Early days for now.

The amount of military support is an interesting dilemma.

The big question is, what would Putin have done if we had given enough that he was pushed back and out? Defeated.
Would he merely have shrugged and said, oh well, I tried. Or would there have been a more violent, perhaps catastrophic, reaction?
Biden would have juggled with this question – and lets be honest, it wasn't just him. He was getting a lot of advise from his military advisors.

The traditional American immoral approach to foreign policy shines through here.
We have always given our "allies" enough support to keep them in a war, but never enough to actually win.
We did this with Ukrainian partisans from 1946 on, until Stalin wiped them out.
There are many more such examples.

I call this the "Kissinger Method", although it predates him. The purpose is "to send a message and show resolve", but always steer clear of actual victory.
This keeps the striped pants boys in the State Department happy, but kills thousands of unimportant civilians.
Biden played that game to a T. Send just enough tanks and planed, but not enough to really make a difference. Then his acolytes, or keepers, can wear yellow and blue and chant virtue.

"The traditional American immoral approach to foreign policy shines through here.
We have always given our "allies" enough support to keep them in a war, but never enough to actually win.
We did this with Ukrainian partisans from 1946 on, until Stalin wiped them out.
There are many more such examples."

"We have always given our "allies" enough support to keep them in a war, but never enough to actually win." 🤔

You could not be more correct!! I harken back to WW1 and WW2. If we had just given more weapons, food, material and our men's lives, the world could have beaten Japan, Germany, Italy, Austria-Hungary, ottomans.. etc. Silly shortsighted US! 🙄

John, what other conflicts where we provided insufficient aid but did not actually fight in are you talking about? We have tried fighting limited wars in the modern era. I can't think of another Ukraine – I am not saying you are incorrect….

I don't think there was ever a real chance of ww3. Short of something unrealistic like USA bombing Russia.
It was a mistake not to go "all in" from the start.
The earlier intervention happened the more cost effective it would have been.
The main chance that was missed was in Georgia 2008.
But opportunity was again missed in Crimea 2014.

Interesting video on Ukrainian forced conscription. IF you're wealthy you're OK, if you're middle/lower class you're a target. If grabbed by a press gang they will shake you down for cash to get out of service, if you can't pay you get bare minimum training and old gear and sent to the trenches…where you will be shaken down again to see if you can pay enough to get reassigned out of the trenches to other duty.

Life expectancy for a conscript is very short – if the Russians don't kill you, the horrible unsanitary conditions and even your "leadership" may kill you anyway.

YouTube link

Will Trump U turn on not supporting Ukraine like he has on tarrifing Canada. He relents after the FIRST DAY of Canadian tarrifs, bad newS though Canada did not stsrt the war but it will finish on their terms. I guess he should do that for Ukraine as well. Otherwise his "peace appeasment" won't get him even on the table when the real EU Ukraine peace talks get going. Maybe not, Putin may let him in as his lacky, after all the US IS A BIG PROVICE OF RUSSIA NOW.

@UshCha – I guess you're in the odd position of supporting a brutal and pointless grinding war of attrition that has claimed ONE MILLION casualties and risks Nuclear Armageddon just 'cause you don't like the president trying to negotiate a peace deal…