"Defence news around the next war in Europe" Topic

Hello

given that the thread "How Long Can The Western Consensus On The Ukraine War Hold?" has found its conclusion this month of February 2025 after 3 years it is now the time to bring such news around Armies and military affairs in Europe in another thread, a theater, after UKRAINE today under pressures to conclude a peace, where Russia could be ready to wage a "large-scale war" in Europe within five years according to several Intelligence Services

The not so convincing example of the 155th Anne of Kyiv Brigade followed by Nordic and Baltic countries

The presidents of Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, as well as the prime ministers of Denmark, Estonia, Iceland, Norway and Sweden, have committed to providing additional support to Ukraine, in particular "by providing equipment and training for a modular unit the size of a brigade", and by investing in the Ukrainian defense industry. A brigade has 3,000 to 5,000 soldiers.

In 2024, France equipped and trained a Ukrainian brigade on its soil [and a second expected in 2025]. This 155th mechanized Brigade "Anne de Kyiv" had been equipped with AMX-10RC armored vehicles, 155mm Caesar guns, VABs, etc. By the end of 2024, according to Yurii Butusov, editor-in-chief of the Ukrainian media Censor.net, 1,700 of its 4,500 soldiers would have deserted. Its equipment in drones, ammunition, and electronic warfare means would be largely insufficient. Its losses, since its deployment near the city of Pokrovsk (south of Donbass) that the Russians have been threatening for months, have been significant.
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If Ukraine fall, all these deserters will fight against Europe as Russian Army.

To be fair the thing is more complicated than "deserters" who didn't want to fight or not, created ex nihilo from 90% conscripts it seems that the 155th Brigade was not really used as such but only by detachments of reinforcements, the best way to destroy the cohesion and esprit de corps of a newly-raised unit, there were also serious problems with the cadres etc…

Major General Drapatyi acknowledged that there are structural problems in the Ukrainian army: "There are problems with personnel, training and composition of units. We analyze them, we draw conclusions. And what comes out of the negativity serves as experience. Let's be honest, there is no other example at the moment of a brigade built from scratch, and from which good results are expected at every stage, without it encountering certain problems. These problems are in the process of being solved."

as said however a second brigade is expected to be trained and equiped

Yeah, it is a well-known fact that many Ukrainian field commanders have Russian habits and traditions. We can't help it, they have to make do with the cadres they have.

The EU has 8x the GDP and 5x the population of Russia. Get yer sh1t3 in order and get busy defending yourselves!

@SBminisguy
quick reminder the war is in Ukraine, which is not part of the EU
The european members of NATO are already increasing their efforts for defence, stop pretending we stand idle

SB, maybe it's working. I would have aimed for Jan of 2026.

Subject: U.K. to Raise Defense Spending to 2.5% of G.D.P. by 2027, Starmer Says – The New York Times


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The european members of NATO are already increasing their efforts for defence, stop pretending we stand idle

Good -- more, faster, better please! It would be great if there was a strong, confident, *liberal democratic* Europe as a partner.

I must echo SBminisguy.

I'm with SBminisguy's and Shagnasty's last two comments.

SBm +1

Frances President Macron met with the POTUS yesterday in the US. Seems they were in agreement to where to go from here. To end this 3 year conflict.

From the reports I saw … both the UK and France[other NATO?] could send Peacekeeping troops to Ukraine. Once the negotiations are completed. Not sure if they will be flying the UN flag ?

Also heard report UK and France(?) will increase their NATO dues to more than 2% in the future. Some other NATO said to do the same.

The US will cut the Rare Earth Metals deal with Ukraine to help pay the billions of $ back to the US, shortly. But thought I heard some of those metals are in areas the Russians occupy.

Report was Russia would be getting troops from Yemen. To continue the war. The will probably as effective as the N/Koreans. More fodder to feed Putin's meatgrinder …
If the war continues who will be sending troops[bodies] to support the Russian seriously attrited war machine ? What is left of it.

Regardless, with US businesses on the ground, working with Ukraine this will assist in keeping Russia at bay. Many Ukrainians will be employed by the US thru the Ukrainian Gov't. To help mine the metals, re-build the massive damage to their infrastructure, etc. This will help getting Ukraine's economy, getting people working etc. Plus help them paying back the US for the billions of $ to support their war effort.

Something also being discussed is the rearming of Ukraine's military. Which AFAIK will also include some in NATO. They have to be strong enough to deter another Russian invasion in the future. If that occurred, it would make #3.

Will the UN set up a DMZ ?

Putin wants no US troops on the ground in Ukraine. So does the US … So it appears it will be UK, France, etc. as peacekeepers. I'm sure the details are being worked out.

Regardless of the "who started the war rhetoric". It will be a moot point. Everyone knows what happened. And will choose to believe how they want to. In the long run, the conflict ends, stops all the waste of blood & treasure. And rebuilding Ukraine.

Something the POTUS said he would do when he was running to get elected. Albeit this quest for peace is still weeks away it appears.

Legion4 +1

Also heard report UK and France(?) will increase their NATO dues to more than 2% in the future.

This is a reference, I think, to the level of GDP spent on defence.

UK already spends 2.3%. Has just announced the uptick to 2.5% planned to be by 2030 will now be achieved by 2027.

France spends 2.1%.

USA spends 3.36% of GDP on defence.

Yes, that is what I was referring to. I missed phrasing it properly. I'm old …

Yes, that is what I was referring to. I missed phrasing it properly. I'm old …

SBS, the EU has 3 times the population of Russia. If course you should probably add the UK to the EU, but then again you should probably add the populations if Byelorussia and North Korea to Russia.

"Frances President Macron met with the POTUS yesterday in the US. Seems they were in agreement to where to go from here. To end this 3 year conflict."

Unfortunately Trump did not (seem to) agree with Macron: when the French president corrected him about the EU payments to Ukraine, which Trump claimed that all that was a loan. Macron pointed out that 60% of the total amount was a gift ! Surely Trump knows this or should have known it. These constant lies make a reasonable relationship with the US only more difficult for us. And the continuing beating the drum of spending more would be a little more believable if there actually was something to spend it on. At least the Dutch military does not succeed to do that because of shortage of possible personnel and shortage of available material.

Another point: the b***t about denying Russia is the agressor (with war criminal Putin): bbc.com/news/60981238

Surely nobody will call BBC untrustworthy !

…I don't know who SBS was talking to…

sorry but on se défend nous-mêmes depuis 1967!
La défense de notre territoire est sanctuarisée et ne dépend donc ni de l'OTAN ni des Etats-Unis, keep your lesson for another day thank you

maybe the reason why were we do not feel betrayed, abandoned or disgusted, contrary to the British Germans and Eastern European but satisfied to see that we were right for decades…

of course such "EU", depicted as if there are no more difference between them than the Carolinas or the Dakotas State National Guards to gather under one army of one country just like that, includes pro-Putin Hungary and Slovakia, neutrals Austria Ireland and Malta…

actually 11 countries (more Canada) are agree to follow that Macron suggested one year ago, sending troops in Ukraine, and 15 opposed

one of them is Poland with the "Top 5%" who should satisfy the US

Poland has spent 30 years building its foreign policy around a strong US alliance. Yesterday, that foundation cracked. Andrzej Duda flew across the Atlantic for a planned hour-long meeting with Trump. He got ten minutes.

This wasn't just bad optics. It was a humiliation. Poland has positioned itself as America's most loyal ally in Europe. But when Trump is reshaping US policy on Ukraine and NATO, Poland was given barely a moment of his time.

Duda had no offer, no clear role after refusing to be part of a stabilisation mission. Meanwhile, France and the UK are shaping proposals on Ukraine. They have leverage.

After the meeting, Duda and his camp scrambled to spin it as a success. They searched for breadcrumbs: Trump's warm words, a vague mention of military cooperation, a possible visit to Poland. But none of it changes the reality.

Trump's words were warm, but the actions matter. His team is cutting Ukraine out of talks with Russia. US support for NATO looks uncertain. And yet Duda left Washington with nothing but scraps.

For years, Poland's security strategy rested on unquestioning faith in the US alliance. That strategy is being dismantled day by day.

Stuart Dowell

"Surely nobody will call BBC untrustworthy !"

Was that said tongue in cheek?
All media is suspect. All countries.

Subject: BBC pulls Gaza documentary after star revealed as son of Hamas minister | The Times of Israel

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@Lilian, aren't you concerned about repeating Russian propaganda designed to internally divide NATO?

Polish president's ‘10-minute' meeting with Trump ignites controversy
Andrzej Duda's chief of staff has insisted there was no shame in waiting for "our greatest ally"

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That's called sarcasm, btw. It seems that European politics at the moment is largely motivated by FRUCK TRUMP! and other petulance. He wants peace? Screw that, more WAR! Still waiting for a real strategy to emerge.

Oops! The leading Romanian opposition leader whose election was nullified by the ruling party was just arrested and jailed, denied legal counsel, media were denied access. The charges are "incitement, spreading false information, and ties to extremist groups."

I guess as defined by the Ruling Party who doesn't want to lose power, eh? I think Europe is becoming fascist in order to "stop fascism."

SBS, are you seriously calling European politicians petulant ? They are mostly trying not to upset Trump while trying to fill the massive holes he has left or is threatening to create in the world order and economy.
While Trump is behaving like a petulant child. Give me all my money back ! Everything we have given you for ever ! And more ! Judges, don't try to stop my illegal sackings or I'll sack you as well !

PS I know absolutely nothing about affairs in Roumania, but it's hardly a major part of Europe or the EU.

Bloody Romanians!! Bad timing what!? Arresting the opposition leader! Not civilized! Just not done in polite society, old boy. But what can you expect from a people that turn into bats at night and suck on each others necks? 🦇 😉

SB +1 on Romania. 🇷🇴

Under a fascist/stalinist/maoist regime this person would be tortured and killed, maybe after a public trial.

The person was released after eight hours.

Calling european leader fascist seems to be the newest catch phrase, but not the result of deep understanding what is going on.

Dogtail, you know Trump and his supporters have been called Facists, Nazis and much, much worse by the MSM and politicians in both the US, Europe and elsewhere. It is now the catch phase for any opposition that does not agree with the views of those doing the calling. It is like yelling "Wolf!" By the shepherd boy, it's lost all its meaning and no one believes it.

So turnabout is fair play. 😉

Well it appears Macron had a meeting with Trump. But they do agree on many things. The UK PM is meeting the POTUS today … and Zelinsky on Friday … Seems some of the main players are talking. And I would not be surprised if shortly many will agree …save for Putin/Russians. And we know they don't play well with others…

But all concerned will have make some concessions …

The last POTUS only said "don't", no one listened to him. And his admin, e.g. Blinken, Sullivan, etc. saw just giving Ukraine more $, etc. was how to defeat Putin …

They used the same "don't" warning with Iran, gave them billions. And a report today was Iran is very close to seeing their Nuke WMD program coming to fruition …

Guess Russia and Iran didn't listen …

Iran will not get WMD cause Israel will bomb the sh&t out of their facilities.
Biden surrounded Russia with hostile countries, destroyed its conventional army without sheding blood of US troops, ruining the status of Russias army as the second best in the world.

What more can a US patriot ask for?

"This country has gotten bloated and fat and disgusting."

nuff said

"The european members of NATO are already increasing their efforts for defence, stop pretending we stand idle"-dogtail

Yes only after the USA threatens to leave the alliance then Europe springs into action after years of neglect. Then we get gibberish like this from Germany…

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So how many tanks, artillery, APCs, aircraft and trained combat formations will Germany provide to the alliance? When will they have them? When Germany actually brings something to the table they will be taken seriously.

What else will Germany include in it's "Defense Budget" besides road and bridge repair?

SBS, are you seriously calling European politicians petulant ? They are mostly trying not to upset Trump while trying to fill the massive holes he has left or is threatening to create in the world order and economy.
While Trump is behaving like a petulant child.

Nope. Trump has a plan and a vision of stopping a war that's caused up to One MILLION casualties and wrought devastation and chaos. The European leaders do not, many seem to be acting on little more than anti-Trumpism. Trump signals he wants peace, they signal more war. Trump signals being circumspect with aid, they send more.

And then what? What's the end supposed to look like, what's Europe's PLAN?

YouTube link

Oh -- and she said this… what the h3ll is she talking about?

"I understand that many people believe that a peaceful solution or a ceasefire is a good idea, but we risk that peace in Ukraine is actually more dangerous than the war that is ongoing now," Danish Prime Minister Mette Frederiksen

SBminisguy Putin and his alliy Trump are very dangerous to Europe a 1s the stupid peace (well appaesement really) proposed by Trump. It is not only pathetic (to be expected of a coward turncote) but unsafe and will result in even more European lives lost. The Danes are correct, but Trumpites want appeasement and Ukraines Minerals.

"There is no question the intention is there to destroy Europe, starting with Ukraine," said Nathalie Tocci, director of Italy's Institute of International Affairs, said of Trump. "The empowering of the far right is instrumental to the goal of destroying the E.U."

Quote from The New York Times Newsletter.

I already said that the USA under the current administration should be considered hostile to the EU. Trump is a Russian asset.

Again, until a peace, ceasefire or the continued extermination of troops on both sides, takes place, everyone is guessing and basing their ra…, thoughts on agenda driven media, politicians and propaganda, of all sides.

As SB put it here or elsewhere

"You're wrong! 🤬
No! You're wrong! 🤬
Your country are a bunch of Facists, Cowards, Nazis…. !!! 🤬
Oh yeah! Well your countries are a bunch of leaches, cowards, Facists, Nazis, ….! 🤬
Well your leader is ……………"

Let it play out.

The Danes are correct, but Trumpites want appeasement and Ukraines Minerals.

Blah blah blah. People are dying now, UsCha -- what's YOUR PLAN TO WIN!?!?

I already said that the USA under the current administration should be considered hostile to the EU. Trump is a Russian asset.

No, you're all in a tizzy because he's talking about REALITY and accountability. He's called Europe on it's immoral use of Ukraine as meat puppets to, as Boris Johnson has said, to "fight a proxy war against Russia."

And you have no plan to win, and are operating under the mistaken feeling that you can "manage" escalation so it doesn't ever get actually threatening or uncomfortable for you. Let Ukrainians die in the trenches so I can feel moral and tough, while propping up Putin's war machine by buying gas from him, 'cause your green polices crushed your energy sector…

SBS,
"European leaders seem to be acting on little more than anti Trumpism. Trump signals he wants peace, they signal more war. Trump signals being circumspect with aid, they send more"

It may have escaped your notice, but Russia continues to attack Ukraine daily. Until any peace deal is signed and implemented Ukraine needs all the help it can get. After peace breaks out, Ukraine will still need lots of help, including military, in order to maintain the peace.

As I said earlier, the European leaders are trying to fill the holes left by Trump.

It may have escaped your notice, but Russia continues to attack Ukraine daily.

Yep, trying to consolidate gains in advance of a peace deal. Not historically unusual.

Until any peace deal is signed and implemented Ukraine needs all the help it can get. After peace breaks out, Ukraine will still need lots of help, including military, in order to maintain the peace.

BUT -- European leaders DON'T WANT PEACE! At least that's what it seems like, we even have the PM of Denmark saying peace is more dangerous than war…

As I said earlier, the European leaders are trying to fill the holes left by Trump.

What holes? If you mean the strategy hole -- not much strategy going on with them. Maybe they could be partners for peace instead of advocates for war, eh?

"There is no question the intention is there to destroy Europe, starting with Ukraine," said Nathalie Tocci, director of Italy's Institute of International Affairs, said of Trump. "The empowering of the far right is instrumental to the goal of destroying the E.U."

What a joke! The Trump Admin calls for peace, the VP says "hey you guys, we're worried you're becoming authoritarian" and European Leftist Socialist Authoritarian-minded leaders freak out and threaten doom and gloom, and one of the liberal party leaders in Canada wants to nuke America now.

Do anything you want -- just don't threaten their power!

And what is "far right" anyways? Looks to me like the AfD platform wants more Free Speech, Secure Borders and an end to disruptive and deadly mass migration from hostile cultures, more energy independence and more free markets and economic activity, and less war.

How scary…

SB don't laugh, the Canadian was serious! 😉

And…And… Denmark is going balls out, building longships for the upcoming invasion.

"Operation Ivar The Boneless" 🦴 Is that the wrong bone, for boneless?

It may not be historically unusual, but it still kills Ukrainians, and it's still illegal under international law. The Ukrainians still need anti-aircraft and other missiles, even if only for DEFENSE.

And Europe is doing nothing that the US wasn't doing up to last week. It's just that we are still doing it. It's still necessary.

A mainstream US perspective from respected classics scholar and events watcher Victor Davis Hanson:

Although the Elon Musk-endorsed Alternative for Deutschland garnered over 20% of the vote in the country's recent elections, the "ultra-far-right" party will likely be blocked from joining a majority coalition in the parliament, further alienating an increasing number of concerned Germans who believe their country is no longer the "powerhouse" of Europe, argues Victor Davis Hanson on this edition of "Victor Davis Hanson: In His Own Words."

"But here's my point, even though they have about half of the support of all German voters, it's likely that the Alternative for Germany will not be represented. And the seats that will comprise the majority will be made up by either a socialist party or the green party, or both.

"Here's my point, again, there's a populist, nationalist backlash, a counterrevolution to the craziness of Europe. And we know JD Vance has outlined that craziness: low fertility, high energy prices, bans against fracking, open borders, dishonorment, deindustrialization, etc. But the conservatives will not have a voice under their parliamentary democracy, even though they earned a voice. And that's only going to make them more polarized. …

"Mr. [Friedrich] Merz said in a speech that given the trajectory of America under Donald Trump, he's distancing himself and he doesn't really consider the United States an ally anymore, at least he said Trump's America.

"Think about that for a second. Now, I don't want to go through ancient history, but we fought two wars with Germany. And we defeated them both, but we also came to their rescue. I think we rescued them in World War I from kaiserism. And that allowed them to have a brief romance with democracy. And then we rescued them from Nazism. They paid a terrible price. But they did lose two wars they should have lost. And then we protected them in the Cold War. … "

YouTube link

And perspective from Italian PM Meloni:

YouTube link

Been there
done that

never again

The SPD ist not a socialist party. It is a social-democratic party. Why should I listen to somebody who doesn´t know the difference?
Why should we repeat the faults of the Weimar republic?

We rescued them from Kaiserizm

The US rescued the money they lend to the UK. That was the reason the US even went to war at all.

"The US rescued the money they lend to the UK. That was the reason the US even went to war [WWI]."

Congratulations dogtail. You proved the old adage "a broken clock is right twice per day."

Poland declares interest in French nuclear deterrent – or even developing its own
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Germany's Merz repeats he's open to France extending nuclear deterrent
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France will expand its Nuclear Deterrent, a fourth nuclear air base with two Rafale squadrons capable of carrying nuclear missiles
The project had been in the works for several years, but at a time when the debate on the scope of France's nuclear umbrella has opened up in Europe in recent weeks, Macron's visit also had high stakes in terms of "strategic signaling."

According to Macron, the Luxeuil-Saint-Sauveur Air Base 116 should accommodate two Rafale fighter squadrons "by 2035" – some 40 aircraft in the latest "F5" standard, compared with just one conventional squadron at present. These aircraft will also be able to carry the French army's future hypersonic nuclear-tipped missile, still in the development phase, the ASN4G (air-to-ground nuclear 4th generation), which is to replace the ASMP-A, the current missile in service with the Strategic Air Forces (FAS), in other words, the aerial component of the deterrent force.
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30 countries in the "coalition of the volunteers" but only half ready to deploy troops in Ukraine
British Prime Minister Keir Starmer and French President Emmanuel Macron are working to build a "coalition of the volunteers" that could provide a security guarantee for Ukraine in the event of a peace agreement with Russia and deter Moscow from launching a new attack. Although the Kremlin remains categorically opposed to the deployment of foreign troops in Ukraine, more than 30 countries have expressed willingness to contribute resources to a peacekeeping force in Ukraine in the event of an agreement ending the war with Russia.

Of the thirty or so countries willing to provide resources, just under half are in a position to contribute troops. These include France and the United Kingdom, of course, but also Sweden, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Spain, Finland, Turkey, and Germany.
Italy and Poland are not currently considering it.

Outside Europe, Canada and New Zealand have indicated a likely contribution and maybe Japan, if so, a participation in a peacekeeping operation not led by the United States or the UN, it would be a first since World War II for Japan.

This would involve "a few thousand troops" per state, dispatched "to key locations, to conduct training programs" and "show our long-term support," according to Emmanuel Macron.

How dramatic -- a new base 10 years from now…

Dragon +1

OVI +1

SBm +1

Gray Bear +1

Iran will not get WMD cause Israel will bomb the sh&t out of their facilities.

That will be the most likely outcome …

Biden surrounded Russia with hostile countries,

Don't think Sweden and Finland joining NATO had anything to do with Biden. More and more it is coming out what many already knew. By observing him in the media. He was an empty suit. Academics like Blinken and Sullivan etc., were making the decisions. Most of them bad. They should have stayed in the classroom. Where they couldn't really hurt anyone.
Our enemies saw this and took complete advantage of it.

It has been said many times before by many who were there thru out his service in Congress. He had never made a good military/geopolitical decision in all his time in Congress or the WH. As is mental capabilities, etc., declined everyone saw it. And many in the WH/DC along with the media knew it and covered it up. Like in the children's story, "The Emperor Has No Clothes" …

Our enemies saw what a weak, feckless, etc. leaders were in the WH. Both the POTUS & VP. Fearing escalation and risk adverse plus how incompetent, etc. his admin and staff were. They jumped at the opportunities that fell into their laps.

Biden's A'stan debacle by ignoring the Military and Intel assets. The plan Blinken, etc. came up with, not taking the advice from those who knew what to do. This massive failure not only kill US Troops that should have died that day.

This embarrassment under him CinC "leadership" emboldened our enemies. Convinced Putin to invade Ukraine. Biden made it worse by slow dragging sending what Ukraine needed in the quantities and in a timely matter. That would have given them a better chance of defending from Russian aggression.

He gave Iran Billions of $s. Thinking they could make a deal with Iran. Trying to reopen the failed Nuke Deal. That $ went to funding the Houthis, Hamas and Hezbollah in their jihad against the Jews. Killing them and forcing the US out of the region. They saw the weakness and confusion in the POTUS, VP and like Putin took full advantage of it.

The incompetent, etc. US leadership was neither respected nor feared.

All the bloodshed of those two conflicts is mostly on the Biden Admin's hands. Along with some in Congress.

destroyed its conventional army without sheding blood of US troops, ruining the status of Russias army as the second best in the world.

No one in the USA wanted to send troops to defend Ukraine. There was no reason to. Giving them the support they needed both from the US and NATO. Plus Ukraine's prowess and skills in combat and hatred of the Russians were important points in Ukraine's favor. Defending their own nation against invaders.

Plus the Russian Military's incompetence in fighting a modern war. Was a huge surprise to many of us. Their military had poorly trained and motivated troops. Poor leadership at all levels and logistics support. Certainly, gave the Ukraine an edge. And edge that they could have taken more advantage of IF the US sent all the needed in the quantities and in a timely manner.

What more can a US patriot ask for?

Well I know a number of US Patriots. Biden shouldn't certainly be considered or called one. He, the VP, his admin and some in Congress couldn't polish the boots on those real Patriots …

It is almost insulting to see when he wore those Aviator Glasses and jacket.

Putin and his alliy Trump

Trump is a Russian asset.

No 💩, are you guys on the other side of the pond watching, reading, etc., what the reality is of any of this situation ?

You guys watching a Euro version of the SyFy Channel ?

I can't explain it in any other way …

Legion 4 +1

And let's remember the Obama-Biden team's most recent foreign policy success, which is the collapse of the Assad regime in Syria and the rise to power of AL QUAEDA! Yes, the Obama-Biden CIA backed an Al Quaeda faction into power, and the "opposition" PKK related group backed by the Obama-Biden DoD joined the new AQ regime. This new regime has now embarked on a brutal pogrom of Christians, Alawites and other minority groups in Syria. That team has caused the deaths of millions of people, and sparked the mass migration flows that have hammered Europe.

Legion and SB +1

How dramatic -- a new base 10 years from now…

sauf que…pas besoin d'attendre une nouvelle base ou d'être comme le nouvel ami et peut être prochain allié sinon partenaire des Etats-Unis,
la Russie de Vlad Catherine la Grande Fo-folle petit Mussolini des steppes torse nu éructant et exhibant son virilisme militaire complexé avec 10 000 têtes nucléaires,
300 Made in France peuvent bien largement y suffire dés à présent et même 30 pour réduire ses grotesques prétentions délirantes et belliqueuses pour l'éternité

et contrairement aux Britanniques notre feu nucléaire est fort heureusement indépendant des Etats-Unis

A bon entendeur