"Has Russia Won?" Topic

We're quite capable of defending ourselves. The question really is, "Is Europe ready to take responsibility for its own defense?"

Sho, for myself. I'm not too worried. Short of nukes, the Russians would have to get over here and then support those troops. Not something they have successfully done before. But maybe the Chinese will loan them their Junks.

"The question really is, "Is Europe ready to take responsibility for its own defense?""

The short answer is – no.
This is the result of long term US policy. It is completely understandable that the US eventually gets tired of this policy and tries to reverse it.

For example, the Estonians, for whom the US should not stand up, as 35thOVI suspected, and let the Russians kill them all, spend relatively more on defense than the US, but are so small that there is no difference. They definitely cannot defend Europe when Trump surrender to Putin.

You're an honest man for saying that, and knowing you live in the Baltic, I have considerably more sympathy for you than I do for the Western Europeans who are willing to fight to the last drop of Ukrainian blood.

The fact of the matter is that the Western European states aren't just going to have to raise their spending a little bit- they're going to have to raise it a lot, and they're going to have to make the kids of sacrifices that entails- which they haven't seen in a generation, maybe more. Realistically speaking, it probably means going well beyond the baseline NATO commitment, maybe even doubling it, as a percentage of GDP.

"You're an honest man for saying that"

One of my opponents once told me angrily that I could be for, against, and neutral on any issue at the same time. I took it as the best compliment that could be given to me.

"and knowing you live in the Baltic, I have considerably more sympathy for you"

Your sympathy don't help me to survive after Trump's possible surrender when Putin will try to test 35thOVI doubts and hesitations about Estonia.

"The fact of the matter is that the Western European states aren't just going to have to raise their spending a little bit.."

Even if they raise it, it won't help. They are overpopulated by Islamic conquerors and therefore there are no people to stand and fight like in Ukraine and Poland.

We can't save the Western Europeans from themselves.

"We can't save the Western Europeans from themselves."

From themselves may be not, but from Russians easily. At least temporarily. Like 35thOVI says, just by sacrificing Estonia. Or Ukraine. Or Poland. etc. One by one.

Europe is Europe east west irrelevant Estonia has as much right to it's sovereignty as any other part of Europe.

"Realistically speaking, it probably means going well beyond the baseline NATO commitment, maybe even doubling it, as a percentage of GDP."

Agreed!

If Ukraine wants to fight on then Europe should support them with or without American.

The sad truth is a peace treaty will give Russia time to regroup and have another crack prolonging the suffering of Ukraine.
Ukraine knows this for some reason you guys can't see that! Just gos to show how short sighted you are.
Putin needs peace his situation is grave China is eyeing up Siberia and allot of Siberians want independence.
That is the reality of the situation
If I thought for a second Putin could be trusted to leave Ukraine or other Baltic countries alone then peace would be great but that isn't true and to believe otherwise is naive at best at worst downright stupid.

35th
Russia is 55ish miles from Alaska.

QUATERMASS: "The sad truth is a peace treaty will give Russia time to regroup and have another crack prolonging the suffering of Ukraine.
Ukraine knows this for some reason you guys can't see that!"

Anyone who knows Russians understands this.

Horror tales about US surrender already spreads..

x.com/JimmySecUK/status/1891501007676346813

Sho, I would not want to see Estonian die. I'm saying the chance of saving them if Russia launches an attack, is slim and none. The same with Latvia and Lithuania. Short of loading divisions in all 3 (lovely mass targets) countries and even that would probably be doomed to failure. Use Nukes? Well.., the Baltics and many others vaporize.

Poland, United with the rest of Central Europe, with a modern and mobilized army, mass conscription and well trained, could probably stop Russia. Especially if Western Europe starts catching up. Would all of Central Europe fight Russia. 🤔 would all of Western Europe. 🤔

Someone in this thread or elsewhere mentioned Taiwan. According to almost every wargame scenario staged in a conflict between the US and China over Taiwan, it is a losing proposition. Both sides lose much and national economies are destroyed. Not sure even if China takes it, what they have left. Of course I'm ignoring nukes again.

I believe this book covers it:

Seven Things You Can't Say About China
Book by Tom Cotton

Cotton is a Hawk.

In order my concerns:

China. A country that treats its own citizens like they have and do, are a true evil. Oh and they still enslave individuals. Mao Zedong Was possibly responsible for the largest mass genocide in history 35 to 45 million. It has not stopped, just more sporadic.

Radical out of control Islam. This has never stopped since 600 AD and has now spread via immigration all over the world. We may all pay for this one long term.

Then Russia and I'm not concerned about Alaska. 😉

To the original question, Russia certainly seems to think so. And becomes more jubilant every day. Propoganda? For their own citizens benefit? Certainly, but that's half the victory. Trump has caused this jubilation in Russia; this choas and worry in Europe. Lets hope his long-term plan turns it all around.

"Russian state TV is overjoyed with how things are going.

"Zelensky is down, Europe is out," says the presenter of the flagship weekly news review programme on Rossiya 1, as the caption next to Zelensky's photo says: "He's toxic"."

China is interested in Taiwan at the moment

YouTube link

"Then Russia and I'm not concerned about Alaska"
Neither is anyone else
But you get sho boki's point right?

China is always interested in Taiwan.

I've answered questions ad nauseam.

Answer mine:

I do not understand how you all can be so up in arms about Trump and not have cared a wit about a man in charge for 4 years with Alzheimer's/dementia. A man Who had to be led by the hand. Could not climb stairs without falling. Made up stories and lied. Fell. Could not read his prompter. Had to be given questions and what reporters to call on. We had no idea who was in charge. Allowed his son and wife in White House conference meetings. That man controlled the nukes for Gods sake!!! Yet other than my side 🦗. Not only that, they lied to you about that condition until they no longer could and then staged a coup and appointed an unelected person to run for President. For the life of me I just don't understand. But in a month, the sky is falling! The end is near!! 🙄

Russia can be deterred, but it takes force and dedication. We did it for close to forty years, with a NATO that wasn't half the size of the present alliance. Russia has never historically mustered the force to break into Central Europe without allies in the West, and today's Russia is smaller and weaker, relatively speaking, than it was fifty years ago.

The problem is Europe's to solve.

35th
I called him out his mental state at the time
Before most noticed if you remember we spoke offline about that.

I called him out Him the Afghanistan debacle at the time on this forum.

I have no love for the biden administration then or now.

I think saying that if black people don't vote for him they are not black is racist.

However he is no longer in office.

I know of only one coup attempt in recent years and that individual is currently in the white house.

I actually agree with trump on Europe needing to spend more money on defence I have sead that on this thread at least twice.

I think I have answered your question clearly
I don't think you gave me or sho boki's question very clearly at all but no matter.

Quarter, that was a group question. Not a specific person. Over multiple ultramodern threads and not limited to Europe. Yes very few would admit his mental issues. But although not there, Ukraine, Afghanistan and Middle East were his watch. What was his little remark about a possible Russian invasion of the Ukraine? Something about the size of invasion? 🤔

What question have I failed to address? Russia regrouping? May be true, but that also gives everyone else the same option.

Harass your politicians! Demand more military spending. Demand conscription. Everyone 18 to 24. Mandatory 2 year service and 6 year's reserves. Invest massively in drones and AI. Experiment with micro droid warfare. What you can't see or detect can kill you in the dark. Erect barricades and impediments in countries close to Russia. Make the Russia in depth defense of Kursk, look like tinker toys.

Some more news. Check paragraph 2.

"What You Need To Know

European leaders are meeting in Paris for emergency talks on how to react to the U.S. diplomatic blitz on Ukraine, which has thrown a once-solid alliance into turmoil and left the Europeans questioning the reliability of their key transatlantic partner

Shortly before the meeting, French President Emmanuel Macron spoke with U.S. President Donald Trump, but Macron's office would not disclose details about the 20-minute discussion

European leaders have been stunned by a weeklong diplomatic blitz on Ukraine from the Trump administration that seemed to embrace the Kremlin while it cold-shouldered many of its age-old European allies"

Subject: Which nations ARE pulling their weight in NATO… and who is relying on 'Uncle Sucker' to protect them? Graphic illustrates who is spending on military amid fears Trump could pull out of alliance | Daily Mail Online


link

35th
Forgive me I may have read into your words something that wasn't there,at this point it's kinda irrelevant but I will explain.
You made a comment about Estonia show boki who lives in Estonia asked if you would feel the same about Alaska.
I took what replies as evasiveness where possibly you were talking the comments literally.
As a European I see Estonia as valid as any other European country and as a European the idea of leaving a European country to invasion is horrific.
I thought show boki's analagy was interesting how would an American feel about an isolated state being invaded.

Estonia was just the name that came to mind at that point. I think I did give reasons as to what I meant, including Latvia and Lithuania in the discussion. I have nothing against any country in that area. I just don't see how a committed invasion of the baltics by Russia could be stopped. All explained in that post.

Also I'm responding on multiple threads currently to people in the UK, France, US, Estonia, Australia and places unknown. Only in 2 instances was it personal. You 2 are not either one.

It is my hope everything works out and people stop dying. Will it last? Does it ever? "The war to end all wars", well until the 1930's.

Ahh found it

"Sho, I would not want to see Estonian die. I'm saying the chance of saving them if Russia launches an attack, is slim and none. The same with Latvia and Lithuania. Short of loading divisions in all 3 (lovely mass targets) countries and even that would probably be doomed to failure. Use Nukes? Well.., the Baltics and many others vaporize.

Poland, United with the rest of Central Europe, with a modern and mobilized army, mass conscription and well trained, could probably stop Russia. Especially if Western Europe starts catching up. Would all of Central Europe fight Russia. 🤔 would all of Western Europe. 🤔"

You're probably not wrong- someone on another thread earlier this year raised the issue, and claimed that the alliance would have to be prepared to surge seven brigades to the Baltic States in 96 hours to defeat a Russian invasion. I said at the time that I didn't think the alliance could do that, even with American assistance.

But to the point I made earlier, successful Russian invasions deep into Central or even Western Europe have always happened in the context of either an invitation to intervene or alliance partners in Central or Western Europe.

Even without the US, NATO has two nuclear weapons states. There's plenty of economic capability to sustain mass mobilization. Perhaps if they spent less time lecturing Americans about the politicians we elect, and paid more attention to their own domestic political situations, their governments would be up to the tasks of defense and deterrence.

Yes Nine.

I've said, and we have seen in the Ukraine. When it comes to logistics, the Russians ride in the little yellow bus. Historically.

What did you see? I know what I saw, twice if you please! But what was most chilling for me was Americans stood by and applauded!
I never thought I'd see that! not after ww2.
I hope I'm wrong.
I hope America is going in the right direction for Americans.

Yes I know what I saw & heard too … But I think NATO/EU knows they have to build up their militaries, and yes some are. But I think the POTUS is making a point at this time Western Europe should be able to take care of themselves. And from what I see, many in NATO feel the same way.

As we see Russia is no longer the threat it used to be. As demonstrated by their ops in Ukraine. If they didn't have nukes they'd a small regional threat. Albeit as long as Putin et al think about wanting to reclaim the old Imperial Russian Empire.

As I have said before many former WP are in NATO. And Finland and Sweden joined NATO after seeing Putin's aggression when invading a neighbor. For no real reason.

I do believe the US will stay in NATO. And the US military and NATO plus others should continue to work and train together. As some day there my be a time where NATO will have to come together and fight a common enemy.

Well I think you are wrong, and I feel the USA is going in the right direction. Of course time will tell … However, IMO the new POTUS and his Admin are light years ahead of the previous. And I know many in Europe etc. saw that the former POTUS, VP, many Dems, etc. did not have the right stuff.

Plus we have seen in only about 3 weeks many things are changing for the better. For many from the standpoint of being a US citizen.

Anyone who knows Russians understands this.

I certainly believe as many do, even after Putin's war is over. He of his replacement after rebuilding their military may invade Ukraine again. As it being discussed to prevent this happening. The Ukrainian forces need to be rearmed, resupplied, etc.

Even the UK PM said, if I understood him correctly, he could see a UK Peacekeeping Force in the Ukraine. After the war is over. Any Peacekeeper would by UN or EU. Not NATO, and the US will not be part of this UN/EU Forces.

I called him out his mental state at the time
Before most noticed if you remember we spoke offline about that.

I called him out Him the Afghanistan debacle at the time on this forum.

I have no love for the biden administration then or now.

I think saying that if black people don't vote for him they are not black is racist.

However he is no longer in office.

I know of only one coup attempt in recent years and that individual is currently in the white house.

I actually agree with trump on Europe needing to spend more money on defence I have sead that on this thread at least twice.

On this all you posted here, we can agree …

Many are with you there, Cuprum. A lot of people are looking at (unelected) Musk and feeling uneasy.

Understand the members of the admin of a POTUS are not elected. E.g. was Blinken and Sullivan were elected in the last Admin ? No … IMO they and many others in Biden's admin were not the 1st Team.

The US POTUS picks his cabinet … none are voted on …

Legion, Nine, yes it is a great chart, and like all such presentations, can be misleading unless you look carefully. Of course the US has sent more money than the individual European nations, which are much smaller.

Yes we know the US has a much larger economy than anyone in NATO. And only totaled does NATO even come close. So yes, we understood the chart. E.g. The US State of California has the 5th largest economy in the world. The world…

The good thing about the chart outlined some of the NATO contributions to Ukraine. There was no doubt the US would be in first place. It was not meant to shame anyone, etc. just a roster of expenditures by some NATO members.

Forgive the length of this quote.
Source.
link

Kiehl Institute Ukraine Tracker.
link

Comparing assistance from different countries
This paper does not attempt to rank countries in terms of the military assistance they are providing to Ukraine or to make comparisons between individual countries and/or the US and Europe.

Comparative data on the level of assistance being provided to Ukraine is available from organisations such as the Kiehl Institute through its Ukraine Support Tracker.

However, the available data includes economic, financial and humanitarian assistance as well as military aid. It also includes future commitments, which in some cases have been made to 2030, and therefore does not just reflect assistance provided, or funds spent, to date.

On this basis, the Kiehl Institute has reported that European assistance to Ukraine is far greater than that provided by the US. However, as the Institute itself acknowledged in its 16 February 2024 update, there is a significant gap between European funding that has been committed and funding that has actually been allocated or spentm and that to fully replace US military assistance in 2024, Europe would need to double its current level of arms assistance.

Making comparisons is also complicated by the fact that many countries do not publish information consistently. It is also unclear where the distinction may lie between certain sorts of assistance, such as mine clearance or non-lethal aid.

Strangers on a Seabed: Sino-Russian Collaboration on Undersea Cable Sabotage Operations

link

Armand

Yup they are always sniffing about
link

Tyne's Commanding Officer, Commander Hugo Floyer, said: "It's hard to overstate the importance of data cables, oil and gas pipelines, electricity cables for wind power and interconnectors that run under the sea, to the wealth and wellbeing of our island country.

"We are proud to play a part in protecting these vast networks that are out of our sight and often out of our minds, but are so vital to our nation and allies.

"The ship's company of HMS Tyne know how important this job is, and I know they are all incredibly proud to serve at sea and play a part securing the energy and data we all rely on every moment, every day."

Tango01, almost all the European countries that you accused of lack of military support for Ukraine have long since sent their weapons and ammunition there, especially Soviet models. Once again, you demonstrate your blatant incompetence in the issues under discussion.
Oh yes, the Russians are blowing up underwater communications again. And they started with their own "Nord Streams")))

35thOVI, the combined army of NATO significantly exceeds the military power of Russia. But at the same time, they call Russia the threatening party ;)

Am I the only one who sees a discrepancy?

Tortorella, your misconceptions about Russian losses as a result of the war will very soon be dispelled. Let's just wait)))

Dagwood, you are very much mistaken… With a high degree of probability, the United States will soon face a conflict with China. It may well be direct and military. And in such conditions, the United States needs Russia at least as a neutral country. It would be even better if Russia turned out to be an ally, but I can hardly imagine such a possibility now. In starting the conflict in Ukraine, Europe and the US had different goals – the US wanted to get a pro-American government in Moscow that would play the role that Ukraine played in relation to Russia – that is, a proxy for the US army, which bears the brunt of the conflict. Europe wanted to solve its economic problems at the expense of Ukraine and Russia. This plan fell through.
Therefore, the United States is withdrawing from the Ukrainian conflict and focusing its interests elsewhere on Earth. And leaving Europe to solve its own problems…
Peace-loving migrants? They will become so. In the third or fourth generation. Maybe. Just start a war with Russia and cut migrant assistance programs)))

QUATERMASS, I am happy to support your idea that Ukraine should continue the war. The best time would be when Russian troops raise their flags in Lviv, and the war ends with the unconditional surrender of Ukraine.
I was especially pleased with your remark that the Russian army is forced to defend itself from its compatriots)))) The Russian army is an army of volunteers.
By the way, how did the trial over the use of chemical weapons in Great Britain end? I would very much like to read the testimonies of the victims and investigators, given under oath…
I live in Siberia. And some of the best volunteer fighters in Ukraine are Siberians, including all the local peoples. You will wait for Siberia to separate from Russia until the Second Coming.
How much your propaganda has fooled you…

Silurian, opinion in Russia is divided approximately equally: some celebrate victory (over NATO, not over the US – the US looks like a pragmatist and the main beneficiary of what is happening), the other half believes that Trump should not make concessions, because in four years all agreements with him will be worthless.
Oh yeah, as I understand it, the US has already resolved the issue of compensating its expenses. Europe just threw its money away…

"…Russian army is an army of volunteers…."

You forget to add:… well payed volunteers…

Show me what Soviet military support have send Spain, Ireland, Portugal, Greece and the others I mention…

There are here only one person here who show a blatant incompetence mixed with brain washed symptom …

Armand

Dangerous work is well paid. And these amounts are significantly less than, for example, a US serviceman receives in a combat zone. And what's wrong? Russia is a fairly rich country and can afford it.

Here is all the available information on weapons transferred to Ukraine by foreign countries. This is only during the war, not counting the weapons and equipment that have been delivered since 2014.

link
Alas, you will have to translate it yourself. I have not found an English version of such a selection.

I will not search for information for all countries and for the entire period, but only individual excerpts from this publication:

Greece transferred or was preparing to transfer to Ukraine in 2022:
- 122 BMP-1 with ammunition for machine guns;
- 60 FIM-92 Stinger MANPADS.
- 1,100 RPG-18 grenade launchers.
- 20 thousand AK-47 assault rifles.
- 2100 122mm rockets.
- 17 thousand 155mm artillery shells.
- 15 thousand 73mm shells.
- 3.2 million 7.62mm rounds

Spain transferred 20 M113 armored personnel carriers to Kyiv

Portugal transferred 6 Ka-32 helicopters to Ukraine

And so on. We remember everything)))
Yes, I know that Arman is the one demonstrating his blatant incompetence here)))

"Yes, I know that Arman is the one demonstrating his blatant incompetence here)))"

Hey Tango notice how he left off the
"mixed with brain washed syndrome"
Part,Says it all really
🤣
Hears one for you to remember R2!
The G7 countries and the EU Member States have recently agreed proposals that will allow profits from sanctioned Russian assets, held in their respective jurisdictions, to be used to help finance military assistance to Ukraine.

Under the EU agreement, the first tranche of funding for weapons purchases, channelled through the European Peace Facility, was mobilised in July 2024.

In effect Russia is helping fund the Ukrainian war effort, oh the irony!
😜

And you know what else… I had a thought about what North Korea will do now if the US goes to war with China and Russia remains neutral… There are some very interesting thoughts on this subject… Just thoughts. Perhaps China has lost an important ally? Or it may lose it…

Steady on R2 you don't want to be doing that thinking it's unpatriotic.

Or maybe China will revisit the events of March 1969 Soviet/China border dispute while Russia is busy with Ukraine and has no friends apart from little Kim of course.
Just a thought.

Okay R2 let's have a look at this tosh

"Oh yes, the Russians are blowing up underwater communications again. And they started with their own "Nord Streams")))"

I thought it was Ukraine that did that?
You know in retaliation for invading their country.
But hey if you know something I don't blowing up your own pipeline was a bit silly.

"Dagwood, you are very much mistaken… With a high degree of probability, the United States will soon face a conflict with China"

Err why would China go to war with it's best customer? China exports $48.8 USDB worth of goods.

"In starting the conflict in Ukraine, Europe and the US had different goals"

Russia started the war by invading.

"QUATERMASS" hi!☺️

"I am happy to support your idea that Ukraine should continue the war."

Glad you agree.

"The best time would be when Russian troops raise their flags in Lviv, and the war ends with the unconditional surrender of Ukraine."

Yeah the problem is your army is 💩

"I was especially pleased with your remark that the Russian army is forced to defend itself from its compatriots))))"

I'm guessing your being sarcastic.

"The Russian army is an army of volunteers."

Apart from freed convicts
Oh and the Merc's and the conscripts

"By the way, how did the trial over the use of chemical weapons in Great Britain end?"

Well there was no trial there was an inquiry though. The GRU-agents Chepiga and Mishkin were so incompatant that with the element of suprise they were unable to kill the Skripals
An old man and a woman but did manage to hospitalise Detective Sgt Nick Bailey a policeman and murder a random woman Dawn Sturgess. Way to go! GRU looks like there as 💩 as the russian army.

"I would very much like to read the testimonies of the victims and investigators, given under oath…"

I can do better than that the inquiry is on YouTube in full you know because I don't live in a free society.
YouTube link

"I live in Siberia. And some of the best volunteer fighters in Ukraine are Siberians, including all the local peoples."

Yeah and they are fighting for Ukraine.

"You will wait for Siberia to separate from Russia until the Second Coming."

Your probably right that would require abstract thought.

"How much your propaganda has fooled you…"

Just thinking outside the box if it were propaganda it would probably be more widely thought.

QUATERMASS, "Nord Streams" were blown up by Ukrainians? Let's assume… I wonder who benefits from the aggravation of the situation in the Baltic Sea? Russia? It seems to me that the Russians are least interested in creating problems with their "shadow" oil and gas trade through the Baltic ports… But someone really wants an aggravation… I wonder – who would benefit from this?)))

"We were just diving…")))

It is not China that needs to fight the US, it is the US that needs to take away the markets of Southeast Asia from China. Containing China is a vital necessity for the US. Forget about morality in the "Great Game" – it does not play any role there… And the reason and motives for a "just war" are not difficult to find. Any of the parties)))

The war in Ukraine began with direct and overt interference of the West in the internal affairs of a sovereign country – Ukraine.

Ok. If the Russian army is shit, then why did you your pants when there was a possibility that the US would not defend Europe? You are extremely inconsistent))) You have nothing to fear))) The Mongol hordes of savages will immediately run away when they see your brave warriors)))

I would definitely be scared)))

There was no trial only because this case would have fallen apart in court, especially if the Russian side had been present))) You can't attach newspaper ducks to a criminal case.

Everything else from your questions is simply not worth my attention)))

"Conan! What is best in life?" "To crush your enemies, See them driven before you, And to hear the lamentation of their women!"."

🙄

R2
I said I "thought"(an idea or opinion produced by thinking, or occurring suddenly in the mind.) Ukraine did it.
Cut the double-talk crap and speak planely what are you on about?

"The war in Ukraine began with direct and overt interference of the West in the internal affairs of a sovereign country – Ukraine."

Nope Ukraine got a sweet deal which was mutually beneficial and Russia didn't like that proberly because it likes to oppress and exploit.yhe war started when Russia invaded

"Ok. If the Russian army is shit, then why did you Bleeped text your pants when there was a possibility that the US would not defend Europe? You are extremely inconsistent)))"

What are you on about?
You must have mistaken me for someone else!
To quote myself
"If the USA wants to be isolationist fine but let's do it properly any remaining US military bases in Europe should be mothballed and American products and flights should have massive tariffs put on them ,you can't deal with the US anymore because any trade with them can be used as a weapon against you in the form of tariffs."

"There was no trial only because this case would have fallen apart in court, especially if the Russian side had been present))) You can't attach newspaper ducks to a criminal case"

No there was no trial because the suspects avoided arrest by leaving the country.
If the suspects were arrested and changed and somehow left the country then it would be possible to have a trial in their absence.

35th
"Crom, I have never prayed to you before. I have no tongue for it. No one, not even you, will remember if we were good men or bad. Why we fought, or why we died. All that matters is that two stood against many. That's what's important! Valor pleases you, Crom… so grant me one request. Grant me revenge! And if you do not listen, then to HELL with you!"

😂

The sad truth is a peace treaty will give Russia time to regroup and have another crack prolonging the suffering of Ukraine.
Ukraine knows this for some reason you guys can't see that! Just gos to show how short sighted you are.
Putin needs peace his situation is grave China is eyeing up Siberia and allot of Siberians want independence.
That is the reality of the situation
If I thought for a second Putin could be trusted to leave Ukraine or other Baltic countries alone then peace would be great but that isn't true and to believe otherwise is naive at best at worst downright stupid.</q

You say this as if this situation has never happened before. It has, and the solution for the Korean War applies here as well.

1. A peace deal should establish a DMZ

2. The DMZ should be defended with layered defenses -- as Ukraine recovers it will need help with this.

3. The DMZ should, in addition to Ukrainian defenses, also include UN Peacekeepers in bases and on patrol in the DMZ. These Peacekeepers can be from nations volunteering (here ta go Canada and Ireland, here's a chance to contribute!), or they can do what they usually do and pay the military of some corrupt despotism to do it.

Over time you may see normalization of relations and so on.

Not "Soviet Models" as you said… but it doesn't matter… seeing your misogyny that prevails in your country, along with ignorance, fear (I see the videos of Russian civilians who are TERRIFIED of speaking out against the "government")… the brutality towards their opponents, their own wounded in combat… the historical barbarities they committed when they were at war… the bloodshed towards their own people who are not taken into account for anything other than giving their blood and lives, how terribly corrupt and drunk they are… etc etc… thanks for confirming the "brainwashing" thing…

I notice you are a little nervous and tense… don't worry… as you have been saying for 3 years… Russia won the war… the bad thing is that nobody warned that to the Ukrainians…

Armand

QUATERMASS, I can't directly blame anyone for the cable problems – I have no evidence. But I can guess who might benefit from this:
- Ukraine, since it is interested in escalating the conflict and drawing NATO into it;
- Europe or some European countries – to stop Russian shipping in the Baltic Sea and increase pressure on Russia;
- China – as long as the war or just any serious escalation in Europe continues, another major war is unlikely to break out;
Choose any suspect…

The rebellion in Ukraine began after the Ukrainian president postponed signing the association agreement with the European Union. And this was his constitutional right. After that, ambassadors and officials of foreign countries began to speak out on Maidan in support of the protesters, calling for a change of government. This is outright aggression.

Ok. I am wrong about you and your position regarding the US, I apologize. But in this case I meant the general reaction of most European ruling politicians.

There is an international court, whose competence includes consideration of cases of the use of military chemical weapons. What prevented this case from being considered there? Judging by the publications, there was more than enough evidence.

Tango01, I am calm, as usual. Long before the current events, I reported here that the war would be over by spring (at least the hot phase), and that the USA could suddenly become Russia's ally. I think many remember this)))
But you still live in the country of yellow-blue ponies… In this country, Ukraine will win, the terrible Russia/Mordor will fall apart, the USA will again write out open checks left and right just for saying the right words…
I don't see the need to interrupt your sweet dream)))

QUOTTERMASS, I missed one point you mentioned… The Russian money stolen by Europe. The war will end, but the debt will remain yours. And believe me, there are thousands of ways to collect it. Because Europe will always need Russia ;)))

"Do not expect that once taken advantage of Russia's weakness, you will receive dividends forever. Russian always come for their money. And when they come – do not rely on the Jesuit agreement you signed, you are supposed to justify. They are not worth the paper it is written. Therefore, with the Russian cost or fair play or no play."
Bismarck O. Gedanken und Erinnerungen. — Stuttgart : J.G. Cotta, 1898-1919

Well… I have some horses but none yellow-blue for the moment…

I don't see USA as a Russian Ally yet… sitting to talk is not an insurance that will be allies…

Which Spring 2026 -2030?… I remember you said at the end the last year…

By the way… recomended to read…

Putin's Wars

link

And another good move of your charming and sweet compatriots…

Russia Strives to Stifle U.S. Nuclear Industry in Ukraine and Bulgaria

link

Armand

The book, although clearly biased, looks interesting. However, I'm unlikely to learn anything new from it… I've lived and live in all this.

The second message is stupid and uninteresting. Once again, the insidious "enemies of the people" and "foreign agents" are trying to prevent the European Union from marching into a bright future))) "The machinations of the imperialists will not work!" Congratulations to Europe for picking up the fallen banner of the USSR))) We are waiting for correctional camps for dissidents to appear in Europe)))

"The machinations of the imperialists will not work!" Congratulations to Europe for picking up the fallen banner of the USSR))) We are waiting for correctional camps for dissidents to appear in Europe)))

If that the new theme of a new movie on the SyFy Channel ? Almost as bad as the Sharknado movies … 🦈

And Putin will claim victory no matter what. Then 5-10 years from now his successor will try it again. He should be dead in the next 5-10 years of natural causes … or anything else would really work for me.

It seems now with all the machinations from the wars in Ukraine and Gaza. Euros should take point on the war in Ukraine. But with heavy assistance from the US. Seems that is what they want. Which is fine if it works. And under the right circumstances it should.

The new POTUS tried to get the some of the Arabs in the Mid East region. To actually be the solution to the problems in Gaza. Again, with US support. Frankly this problem has gone on too long with Hamas and Gaza. Something new has to be done. With the situation in Gaza and even Hezbollah.

But what is integral to this plan it to stop most if not all of Iran's attempts to push Israel into the sea. And the US out of the region. Using proxies, to rebuild the Mid East as they see fit. Which will upset most of the other denizens of the region who mostly are Sunni Arabs. While most of Iran is mostly Shite and Persian.

The problem was compounded by the last Admin freeing up 60 Billion $ and given to Iran.

Which not only funded their support of Arab terrorists in the region. But even worse is some of those billions went to their Nuclear WMD program aspirations. While the past WH thought they could just make a deal with Iran's theocratic fundamentalists leaders.

Again more amateurs in charge of the WH and many in DC.

And everyone knows there is no way in Hell Iran should get deployable nuke WMDs.

The Western World and the Mid East has not been in this much turmoil in decades.

America's recent extremely weak leadership contributed to this immensely. And Russian, Iran and others on the planet that are enemies of the West took complete advantage of this massive failure.

SBminisguy.
You say this as if this situation has never happened before. It has, and the solution for the Korean War applies here as well.

🤔… interesting! I have to admit my knowledge of the Korean War starts and ends with those 2 excellent Sam Fuller movies "steel helmet? & Battleground? Was MASH korea?" I'm also not that well versed in DMZ's,What happens if its crossed?
With that in mind let me stress test it.

1. A peace deal should establish a DMZ
Q:Okay cool.
2. The DMZ should be defended with layered defenses -- as Ukraine recovers it will need help with this.
Q: fair nuff.
3. The DMZ should, in addition to Ukrainian defenses, also include UN Peacekeepers in bases and on patrol in the DMZ. These Peacekeepers can be from nations volunteering
Q:so Korea is on a peninsula the DMZ in Korea is seems relatively simple compared to Ukraine looking on a map
(yes I know it's a distortion)
And just eye balling it from the sea to Belarus is 3 times longer!
And what about Belarus? Didn't Russian use Belarus as a staging post?
So this proposal would have a DMZ which would be something like 5ish times the size of the Korean DMZ and with an ocean on only one side.
I don't know are my observations valid to you
SBminisguy?
Over time you may see normalization of relations and so on.

R2
"I can't directly blame anyone for the cable problems – I have no evidence. But I can guess who might benefit from this:"

Q:So why come with all This clandestine "John has a long mustache"language like you have some greater knowledge? And you don't!
Is because you live in autocratic dictatorship that you have such trouble speaking planely?

- Ukraine, since it is interested in escalating the conflict and drawing NATO into it;
Q:Sounds about right seeing as they are at war with Russia.
- Europe or some European countries – to stop Russian shipping in the Baltic Sea and increase pressure on Russia;
Q: unlikely
- China – as long as the war or just any serious escalation in Europe continues, another major war is unlikely to break out;
Q: now that's just silly,a war will brake out weather or not there is war in Ukraine.

"Choose any suspect…"
I already did! You were the one making out like you know better!

"The rebellion in Ukraine began after the Ukrainian president postponed signing the association agreement with the European Union. And this was his constitutional right."
Q:yes
"After that, ambassadors and officials of foreign countries began to speak out on Maidan in support of the protesters, calling for a change of government.
Q:so what! They are intitled to,and to voice there options,it's called freedom, freedom of thought, freedom of speech, freedom to disagree.

"A state that suppresses all freedom of speech, and which by imposing the most terrible punishments, treats each and every attempt at criticism, however morally justified, and every suggestion for improvement as plotting to high treason, is a state that breaks an unwritten law."

Kurt Huber 24 October 1893 – 13 July 1943.

This is outright aggression."
Q: nope! Russia invading Ukraine is outright aggression.

Ok. I am wrong about you and your position regarding the US, I apologize. But in this case I meant the general reaction of most European ruling politicians.

Q:While I appreciate it apologies are unnecessary it is easy with this clumsy form of communication for misunderstanding.

"There is an international court, whose competence includes consideration of cases of the use of military chemical weapons.
What prevented this case from being considered there?
Q:Boris Johnson probably got a back hander by all accounts he's very cheap to bribe.

"Judging by the publications, there was more than enough evidence."

Well you have the link!
Fill your boots.

I'm also not that well versed in DMZ's

As I have posted ad nauseum previously. I spent 22 months in the ROK, '84-'85. With a forward deployed Mech Bn of 3d Bde/2ID. With two tours on the DMZ. I'm not complaining, I volunteered to go to the ROK and to extend for another year. The war is not over. Only a truce. So, I have a working knowledge of DMZs. And fairly well read on that war. Albeit it I was there a long time ago.

And yes the movie and TV series "MASH" was set during the Korean War '50-'53.

With that in mind let me stress test it.

Generally your points are valid. Note: IIRC there is still a DMZ set up on Cyprus. Between the Greek Cypriots and the Turks. After the Turk's invasion in 1974, IIRC.

Like on DMZ in the ROK it is a UN mission. We still flew the UN flag along with the US flag on our Guard Posts and FOB. I believe any where the UN has established a DMZ the UN flag is flown.

Unlike in places like Cyprus, Only ROKs and US troops are deployed there. Albeit it there was a Plt of Gurkhas with the US lead UN Honor Co. in Seoul. I never saw any other UN troops there. Save for a few high-ranking officers here and there for other UN nations.

Frankly as I have said before. I highly recommend establishing DMZs on both the Ukraine-Russian Border and even Gaza. However, I believe Russia after reaming, refitting, etc. will only take 5-10 years before they try again to occupy Ukraine again. Note the Russians are part of the UN P5. They and the PRC generally disagree with the other members of the P5. I.e. US, UK, and France.

A DMZ in Gaza will be very dangerous. As Hamas and the other islamic terrorists in the region will see UN forces as Targets. The other UN forces will have to work closely with IDF. The IDF well they are very experienced in dealing with islamic terrorists. Plus it is their backyard …

Regardless there are no easy answers as long as Hamas and Russia intend to continue their wars. To suit whatever their end game is … Generally resulting in death and destruction. If the new US POTUS can mitigate any of that, it should be welcomed. No matter what is thought of him personally.

Seemingly & Leigon
The border between Russia & Ukraine is
1,226.61 miles The border extends from the Black Sea to the tripoint with Belarus
The border Between Ukraine and Belarus is 674 miles.

Korean DMZ:
Length(160 miles)
Cypress DMZ:
Length (112 miles)

Yes I generally knew all that. But thank you. However, the longer border will be run similarly. But yes it may take more troops, etc. than in those other locations we mentioned. Plus, much of the DMZ would be monitored by drones, orbital assets, other high-tech devices, etc. Like part of many static line or DMZ. Each sector has a designated QRF[Quick Reaction Force]. A unit locked & loaded ready to go to the line to mitigate any penetration by the enemy.

While heavier support is on the way. By designated follow-on forces. Plus the QRF will have dedicated FA, CAS, Gunship, armed Drone support, etc. Based on the situation, etc.

Something that I have said before and really shows those in the last Admin were way out of their league, again. In both A'stn and Ukraine intel assets, etc. from all methods and sources. From on the ground all the way thru to orbital assets. Saw that the Taliban, AQ, etc. were gobbling up provinces there like Pacman in the video game. This was happening almost daily.

As well as it took many months for Putin to move all those Russian forces to the border. And the US saw and knew it.

But in both cases, the last POTUS et al did little to react to the evolving situations.

I am glad my troops and I were not in the line or the QRF with the last POTUS, etc. in charge … Of course I'm much too old, fat, crippled etc. to be involved in that sort of thing …

The preparation for those movements started way earlier during Trumps first administration. The idea for the invasion didn't start as soon as Biden was elected.

What more should Biden have done? He gave about as much as could have been given without triggering something much worse.
What do you think should be done now?