"Fighting from windows and different levels." Topic

Sill on the buildings theme. Fighting from windows and different levels.
So this question is for Modern (ish) skirmish level gamers who may consider windows. What restrictions if any do you put on? I will describe warts and all, how we do it and then tell us what you do and why.
So for this thread a window refers to a domestic house window typically 5 to 8ft wide and maybe 4 ft tall.
So we have some basic rules.
Just to make the game look sensible (personal preference and a bit of logic here) we only allow 1 figure to shoot from a window. Weapons with a No2 who does not shoot means the window can be used by a crew serves weapon (typically LSW or MMG).
Note this applies only to buildings that have not been fortified where the defender can define fully protected arcs outside those defined here. However that does not let elements shoot out along a wall that has the shooting aperture in it.
To remain invisible until shooting or otherwise betraying their position they have to stand back from the window. This means they may only shoot out at a maximum of 45 degrees in any direction from the window plane. We mallow gods eye view (other folk looking in the team) so they are aware of all folk that would be visible, but they may not be shot at from the covered position. ( This is a bit of a key issue in our rules). Now troops are allowed to move out from the covered position at troops in a wider arc including directly up or down. They do this very quickly and so can shoot at any enemy they can see. They lose the cover benefit. However they do not get to duck back until the enemy has had an opportunity, should he be able) to shoot back at the unprotected firing element.
Where there are several windows adjacent a say 3 man rifle base, may be assumed to fire from such adjacent windows, so keeping to the one figure to a window limit. Any movement is thene based on the furthest window used by the element when assessing movement.
Larger windows may allow more than 1 figure per window. We do not give guidelines in the rules beyond this as model houses vary so much. For us its well defined as we only use our buildings so we can be rigorous in the definition but we would never insist on anybody using our terrain, that is a personal preference.

PS we have yet to deploy the Shoot Round Corners weapons so far. They seem not to be universally adopted so I suspect they were not that effective but it would be interesting to be proved wrong.

Do you consider the windows to be intact, or broken out?

Two soldiers can easily occupy the space of a 5+ foot wide window. If they take position at opposite window posts, they can maintain cover and concealment while having an almost 180 degree field of fire between the two, and they can effectively overlap their fields of fire to the front while maintaining a minimally observable position.

I think this is what 79thPA is referring to: link

You can do the same thing with windows too, with one on each side not skylining themselves in the window.

Positioning yourself directly back from a window narrows your FOF.

The ability to hit a target popping up or moving across a window depends on Situational Awareness and overwatch. If you need to move your aim to a different window, the best you can hope for is an inaccurate snapshot of a fleeting target.

Wolfhag

I wrote some fairly detailed rules for windows, doors, and breaches in walls and roofs for StarGrunt II a long time ago. The rules covered movement, spotting, and firing both into and out of windows, doors, and wall and roof breaches. I put the rules into table format to make it easy for the players to find the applicable situation.

79thPA I will give you that to some extent, but to maintain a hidden position, Weapon and personnel not visible, that is being fully in shadow, they will have to make the arc of fire along the wall very small; probably not even close to 90 degrees while being well back so as not to betray the position, acceptable but quite limiting. Standing close to the window risks being illuminated and observed.

A quick simulation with my window and I need to be 3 to 4 ft back from the window edge to be clear and at that point you do not have a 90 degree arc of view.

Plus in my house ( of which there are many examples in Europe) there is not 3 to 4 ft either side of the window. My house rooms are only 12 ft wide at most, so a 3 to 4 ft side position is not possible with a window 5 ft wide. There are smaller windows, but they are in smaller rooms with even less distance either side of the window.

Clearly you have highlighted some assumptions made in the rules that I had not actually recognised which is interesting of itself.

I does make me realise I have no working assumptions for say Dessert housing that has very small windows but as we do not fight virtually any game in those environments its a moot point. However any good suggestions as to what we should we do so?

This discussion does however lead me to there are more interesting issues on observability vs fire arc.

Another reason (which again is open to a LOT of debate) is that certainly some houses have minimal ballistic protection so being further back means more rounds need to be fired to intersect with the shooter.

PS. I did the simulation in the all glass conservatory so I could get 3 to 4 ft from the furthest window. In houses with full width windows the only option would to be well back from the window as its wall to wall, but that does breach the 5 ft window set by this thread.

Wolfhag – sorry I was not thinking, your diagram in the link shows the issue I was covering most excellently. I need not have done my own experiment and 3 to 4 ft may be an underestimate on my part. It does beg the question how practical the links suggestions are. If I look at my living room there is a large amount of furniture on the door wall making it precarious to move quickly and obtain a stable platform in places.

Oberlindes, where would one find those please?

Ush, go to page 6-32 to see what I am talking about. Pull the rifle in and the only thing that might be visible is part of the head.

PDF link

79th PA I see what you mean but Further back would be better hidden. This poasition has a limited view downwards otherwise more exposure required. Further back the man could stand and still not be seen allowing him to see down better, but still limited.

Again it assumes unclusster rooms not so in Europe. Still its food for thought and much appreciated.

Oberlindes I would also like to see these as our rules have elements similar to SG2. Indeed it was ones of the inspirations for our rules.

Additional info on technique: link

Wolfhag