"Borodino OOB" Topic

Does anyone know where I can find a detailed OOB of Borodino, that shows the number of men of each brigade, for the two forces? All I can find is detailed OOBs, that shows the number of units. Nazigfer is guilty of this. One online OOB that shows this information would be very helpful. By the way; the website "Obscure Battles" shows this data, but I was wondering if anyone else does this. Thanks.

What's wrong with the Obscure Battles data?
Did you follow up on any of the references he lists?

@reggie88

I am not sure you will find what you are looking for as I have not seen any detailed returns.

@BillyNM

Obscure Battles OoB for Borodino is a best educated guess – nothing more!

I have spent years looking into the Russians, by Borodino the corps were whittled down with exception of the Gurad who were up to full strength. The artillery is a question as the units are at full complement in tubes but how many men to work as still has to be a number to work them.
My numbers figure whatever you want in a Battalion or cavalry Regiment lose 1 company or squadron in each.

I've seen so many source totals. For the French, I've seen the strength totals go as high as 190,000 men. I've seen so many variations of the total strength, for both forces. But it is never broken down in detail.

I'm not sure anyone knew then, let alone that detailed French returns survived the retreat from Moscow, and the Russian returns further retreat and two or three revolutions. The variance among historians who would have had access to the appropriate archives suggests otherwise.

As a suggestion. I'm remembering a French regiment badly cut up in some back and forth fighting in the run-up to Borodino. Previous day, I think. His Imperial Majesty asked, on inspecting them "where is the third battalion?"
"Sire, it is in the redoubt." So the regiments which went into Russia five battalions strong were now expected to be three battalions, and so about 1,500 to 2,000. Except that this one could only muster two. The 4,000+ infantry of June were 1,000 to 1,500. Figure the cavalry would be worse. Horses die on campaign faster than men.

My even less secure guess for the Russians would be that regiments which mobilized all three battalions in 1812 fielded two understrength ones by Borodino unless they broke up the Opolchenie to beef up the regulars a bit. I get different stories on that one. A cavalry regiment at 3/4 or 4/5 strength would have been a minor miracle.

Sorry. The Voice of Depression this evening.

Best I've been able to reckon it is the French average strength about 380 per battalion, the Russians about 400.

However, this is based on estimated overall strengths, which vary wildly, depending who telling the story. Also there'd undoubtedly be a lot of variation between units, depending on previous action and recent reinforcements.

According to the biography of general von Ochs, whose author must have had access to some military records, as he gives detailed losses for Junot's corps at Borodino, the fifteen battalions, five cavalry regiments and artillery of this corps which were present at Borodino, counted before the battle "less than 10.000 men".

This makes roughly 500 men per unit.

It is a pity he doesn't give any more detailed info about the strength of the Westphalian corps before or after the battle.

Thomas Hemmann has pointed me to Giesse, who gives 12.200 men as the strength of the Westphalian corps at Borodino:

link

So roughly 650 men per battalion, and 300 men per cavalry regiment.

The last full returns broken down by regiment that I have seen for the Grande Armee are dated 23 August in "Campagne de Russie 11 Août – 19 Août 1812" by Gabriel Fabry. The Westphalian Corps is shown with a total strength of 470 officers, 12,216 men & 2,729 horses. [note for some of the Corps the returns look a bit strange as the number of officers are shown under the column titled "soldats" and the soldats are shown under the column titled "chevaux de troupe"].

Skimming my various Russian books, I cannot see actual strength returns.

Look at the Clash of Arms Moscova boardgame. Good research went into it.