"versus cartel on Texas border" Topic

a scenario possibility for sure. Would the Mexican military be neutral or pro-cartel?

link

throw in corrupt US border agencies staff, trigger happy National guard – Lots of possibilities

Examples from the 1914 Vera Cruz Expedition and the 1916-17 Pershing Expedition.

Pick a cartel that pisses off the U.S. Hit them hard and fast with all forces out in 1 hour. Have Trump just smile when asked if the U.S. did the deed.

The Israelis do it all the time – allegedly.

For some more chaos, make it two or three cartels, US Army, US National Guard, Border Patrol, a few ranchers, some militia types and a few non-combatant church groups or media.

Let the players decide which 'side' they want to be on. (Cartels may decide to knock out some competition, factor in some dice rolling to possibly trigger friendly fire incidents, maybe have the ranchers decide that this is a good time to 'settle old scores'.
Oh the possibilities!

FWIW, The 26th Infantry Battalion of the Mexican Army is stationed near Juarez, (J-town). They are second rate in quality in terms of force structure and equipment in the Mexican military. It's been a well known secret that the 26th BN is pretty sketchy and often times corrupt.
On top of this, if you want to throw in something that will really make you want to beat your head against the wall, look up how many young women go missing in Juarez, (aka: J-town, aka: Wa-zoo…), and they end up being found buried out in the desert near the trash pit mountain.

You can also add Mexican federales as another faction.

I have a very strong feeling that the new President of Mexico is not going to sit back and take it if Trump invades. This isn't 1914. There are no warring Civil War factions.
A Soecial Forces attack on cartel HQ would, and should be considered an Act of War.
As woukd a unilateral invasion of Greenland. Nice way to tear apart NATO.

Anyone here on TMP willing to cheer on an invasion of Panama??? 🙄

It looks like a chaotic and complex "game". It also ignores the possible political and economic ramifications. It is an act of war, as others here have noted in the past. There will be outrage in Mexico and around the world. How did we get distracted so quickly over Greenland, Panama, Mexico? And why is this stuff all over the POTUS news instead of Ukraine ?

I used to think a surgical strike on the cartels was a good idea. Ironically, conservatives here dissuaded me.

What I find even funnier, is how concerned some are about Greenland, Canada, Mexico and Panama, 😱 but were many of the same ones telling us to not be concerned about the potential for nuclear confrontation or a widening global war, with the escalations of support for the Ukraine. 🙂

But ask yourselves a question: hypothetically,If a war with Mexico was to happen, has not Mexico already declared war on the U.S. and killed and wounded millions of our citizens, with unfettered drugs like fentanyl and others freely into our country? By allowing millions to pass through their country and even aiding them to invade the US? And kill, rape and rob US citizens, this Including terrorists and gangs. By their collusion with the drug cartels in their own country?

Lastly, see how Trump handled Columbia recently when their President refused to take their illegal criminals back.

Biden, Obama and both Bush's were globalist. Trump is US first. One of the reasons he was elected. Also why so many globalist worldwide hate him.

Case in point:

Trump continues call for 'state-of-the-art' Iron Dome missile system, signs executive order

US first.

link

Some of you people need to spend time in The Valley. You may not be so eager to game it if you had first hand knowledge of what goes on down there.

We're already at war with Mexico. Warm up to that fact.

So John, and others, do you agree, or not, that the Canal is a VITAL INTEREST for the US? As it has been considered for more than a century now. "Vital interest" means we will go to war over that. I do want to see the evidence that China now controls it, as Trump claims.

"Chinese companies are right now building a bridge across the canal at a slow pace so as to take nearly a decade. And Chinese companies control container ports at either end. The partially-completed bridge gives China the ability to block the canal without warning and the ports give China ready observation posts to time that action,"
…
"Meanwhile, the high fees for canal transit disproportionately affect Americans because U.S. cargo accounts for nearly three quarters for canal transits. U.S. Navy vessels pay additional fees that apply only to warships. Canal profits regularly exceed $3 USD billion dollars," Cruz continued. "This money comes from both American taxpayers and consumers in the form of higher costs for goods."
…
"However, Federal Maritime Commission Chairman Louis Sola testified Tuesday that "Since 2015, Chinese companies have increased their presence and influence throughout Panama.

"Panama became a member of the Belt and Road Initiative and ended its diplomatic relations with Taiwan. Chinese companies have been able to pursue billions of dollars and development contracts in Panama, many of which were projects directly on or adjacent to the Panama Canal," he told lawmakers. "Many were no bid contracts, labor laws were waived, and the Panama and Panamanian people are still waiting to see how they've been benefited.

"It is all more concerning that many of these companies are state-owned and in some cases even designated as linked to the People's Liberation Army," Sola added. "We must address the significant growing presence and influence of China throughout the Americas and in Panama specifically." "
…
"Panama has for years flagged dozens of vessels in the Iranian ghost fleet, which brought Iran tens of billions of dollars in oil profits to fund terror across the world,"
..,

Importantly and most don't know when we turned it over:

"For decades after its completion in 1914,the United States administered the Panama Canal, an 82 kilometer (51-mile) waterway connecting the Pacific and Atlantic oceans. Full control of the canal was returned to Panama in 1999, but Washington reserved the right to use military force to preserve its neutrality. Some 40% of all US container traffic passes through the canal each year with China as its second biggest user.. "

..,
Also

"China has significantly expanded its presence around the canal in recent years, especially since Panama established diplomatic ties with Beijing in 2017. That was the same year Panama became the first Latin American nation to join China's Belt and Road Initiative.

Concerns of Chinese overreach in the waterway have focused on two ports, Balboa and Cristóbal, located on the Pacific and Atlantic sides of the canal respectively. Since 1997, they have been operated by a subsidiary of Hutchison Port Holdings, itself a subsidiary of Hong Kong-based CK Hutchison Holdings, owned by Hong Kong billionaire Li Ka-shing.

Analysts said even if Trump's threats are just bluster — and the Chinese threats overstated — there is a method to the new president's rhetoric.

"We're seeing Trump use Panama as an example," said Will Freeman, a fellow for Latin American studies at the Council on Foreign Relations. "[He's saying] don't think you can get away with closer ties with China on my watch."

A critical military artery

There are concerns in Washington that Chinese operations around the Panama Canal could morph into a capacity to control it, especially if a hot conflict were to break out between the two superpowers.

In testimony to the US Congress last year, the then-commander of the United States Southern Command responsible for Central and South America, General Laura Richardson said, "[China] messages its investments as peaceful. But many serve as points of future multi-domain access for [China] and strategic naval chokepoints," before citing the Panama Canal by name.

This stands in stark contrast to how Beijing characterizes its relationship with Panama. In a message congratulating Panamanian President Mulino on his election victory last year, Chinese President Xi Jinping said that establishing diplomatic ties had brought "tangible benefits to the people of both nations."
"

Bypassing the Panama Canal requires either a trip through the Arctic's NW Passage (through Canadian waters), or a trip south to go around the tip of Argentina. The southern route adds weeks to transit times.

It is, in fact, a major choke point. It also aims for the heart of the Monroe Doctrine:

We owe it, therefore, to candor and to the amicable relations existing between the United States and those powers to declare that we should consider any attempt on their part to extend their system to any portion of this hemisphere as dangerous to our peace and safety.

While the Monroe Doctrine was originally aimed at Europe, it applies equally to Asia, in principle. Yes, I believe it is worth going to war over who controls the Panama Canal. Its control by any foreign power, threatens the whole of worldwide shipping.

Let us not forget that the USA is the largest consumer of foreign trade, globally, at present. China is dancing on the sharp edge of a razor blade in dealing with the USA, and the USA is largely dependent upon China's trade goods. It seems as though China and the USA are dancing the Tango together, on said razor blade's edge. It will be very interesting to see how it plays out. Cheers!

I think that in any hot conflict, the USN would cut China's precarious oil supply route across the Indian Ocean quickly and virtually unopposed. The Chinese navy runs on oil, even the new ships, its new carriers' thousand mile range means it has no sure way to project force globally. Blocking the canal is economic suicide for them and a disaster for us. We are interdependent, a curse and a deterrent.

Most of the fentanyl entering the US from Mexico is still carried by US citizens through customs from what I understand. What cartel leader is going to give millions worth of drugs to refugee families to swim it across to the US? Remember the crack epidemic? Came through Miami. Americans go from one drug to another- opioids, meth, heroin, etc. The customers are part of the problem. Why is the demand so huge? The US distributors are part of the problem. The huge supply of weapons the cartels bring in from the US are part of the problem. You take out one cartel, another one appears. It's not just the cartels anyway.

We don't disagree on the drug takers. It is hard for me to feel any sympathy for them. At least the ones who continue to use them to "feel good". They are just as guilty of the deaths as the suppliers are.

🤔 Maybe 3 arrests for drug possession or distribution and we ship them to Mexico.

Of course most fentanyl is manufactured in China I believe. So it seems the Chinese have declared war on the world. The drugs and deaths related to it and then add the "gain of function" research in the Wuhan "lab". The " accidental" escape, the death of millions, the millions who will suffer lifetime of health problems because of it and the trillions of dollars of cost associated with it. Seems like the world should rise against them in righteous rage! 😡….…. But yet, they don't….. they continue to buy their products… employ their people… build them new factories…. Educate them in our collages….. Give them a pass. Until the next outbreak… OPPS!! I mean "accident"😳 … and then rinse and repeat.

Instead we will keep chanting "Evil ORANGE MAN!!!".

Even Putin has not killed millions recently.

China 🇨🇳 on the other hand, has. 🤢🤢🤢 💀💀💀

As the great Chinese philosopher, Master Oogway said:
"There are no accidents"

AFAIK the Cartels/gangs have some control over members of the Mexican Gov't. The USA will not invade Mexico … no need too.

I had mentioned before, I thought the US Forces should have more firepower when deployed near the border. E.g. not just SAWs and MGs, but maybe some mortars. Just in case of this type of incident.

The question came down to according to reports. Is where these criminals were firing from? Is it US or Mexican territory. Regardless, I don't think the Gov't of Mexico would go to war. If US Forces lobbed a few 4.2' mortar rounds, returning fire on the bad guys that fired upon US assets along the border. Based on what we see when dealing with cartels/gangs if you let them get away with anything they will continue. And even escalate.

Note a 4.2' mortar is not really a long-range weapon, per se. So, it is not like the US would be shelling Mexico City, etc.

If the Mexican Gov't is upset about the US killing some criminals. That fired upon US assets. They could complain to the US Gov't or send a harshly worded let to the UN, etc.

Of course the Mexican Gov't knows that the US just using cruise missiles and drones could eliminate the cartel/gangs starting with their leadership. However, that would be considered an act of war. And the US couldn't let the Mexican gov't know these strikes are coming. As some in the Mexican Gov't would let the cartels/gangs know.

Plus no need for the US to invade Panama. It can be worked out without a shot fired. IIRC, it is being worked on now.

OVI +1

@John The OFM

I have a very strong feeling that the new President of Mexico is not going to sit back and take it if Trump invades. This isn't 1914. There are no warring Civil War factions.
A Soecial Forces attack on cartel HQ would, and should be considered an Act of War.

The Cartels have now been designated as International Terrorist organizations, so if the Socialist Cartel Puppet President of Mexico wants to support the cartels against just law enforcement and military action, Mexico can be labelled a State Terror Sponsor. This would immediately subject them to trade and travel restrictions, sanctions on individuals and the economy, suspending most aid of many kinds, seizing Mexican assets and accounts -- and the US could even suspend remittance payments. This would definitely collapse the Mexican tourism industry and play havoc across their economy.

Of course the Mexican Gov't knows that the US just using cruise missiles and drones could eliminate the cartel/gangs starting with their leadership. However, that would be considered an act of war

Dunno -- will Mexico go to war to protect the Cartels?

"This isn't 1914. There are no warring Civil War factions."

Actually there are.
Mexico has been in a quiet "civil war" for over a decade now. Rampant government corruption along with the newly installed puppet president, and the cartels fighting each other, as well as elements of the Army/Marines/ And the Federal and Local Police, (most of the local PD's having been under the control and payroll of the cartels). The fact that the fighting has been as open and as constant as say "Aleppo" was or Beirut in '75, is a blessing to us here north of the river.
Those days are soon coming to an end however.

+1 Choctaw…

It will play havoc with our economy also, Mexico is a major trading partner, our economies are intertwined. Any chaos we bring there will come back to haunt us.

Tort, more so than the present deaths from fentanyl?

Doc …We have a long history of illegal drug use in the US. There is a market for drugs, substantial demand. Always has been. Very difficult to suppress for any length of time. The US has the highest drug overdose rate in the world.

Recently, overdose fatalities began to fall substantially. Some states report fatalities declining as much as 30% or more just last year. A good thing. Hopefully we will not defund some of the programs that are helping with this. Naxolone has saved thousands of lives.. Suboxone helps reduce addiction. Law enforcement action has reduced supply, and the cartels cut fentanyl with other drugs more often now. Blaming Mexico for drug overdoses leaves out a lot of the story.
I realize this does not fit the political narrative.

Tort

So are drug users criminals or victims? 🤔

Legally they are criminals, but do you see addiction as a choice to possess and use illegal substances or an illness? I see it as both, but I am not sure it matters. Users may end up committing other crimes, they may end up dead. They are self medicated, driven to addiction by pain, mental stress, living conditions. Or they are thrill seekers. Many other factors. It is a whole world of pleasure, pain, crime, and early death.

I am not defending the Mexican government, the cartels. But if you could destroy the threats from Mexico, some other bunch will fill the void, IMO. I don't know the solution, but it has to be wider than just fighting cartels and building a wall. Before the cartels got into selling meth, it was a large backwoods industry made in the USA and still is. Send in the Army? It's part of a solution.. It will take a sophisticated approach to really reduce illegal drug trade, IMO.

Yes legally they are criminals, as are illegals ( which many still do not want to admit "undocumented" 🤮).

So if one eliminates the user, one destroys the cartels by that logic. But then again, do the cartels just bounce to another crime, as they did smuggling illegals into the US?

Treat the users? Well that cost taxpayers money and what percentage don't go right back?

"Between 40% and 60% of addicts will inevitably relapse."

Bad odds, right? So what do you do with those who relapse? Rinse and repeat? Again and again?

What about the dealers and suppliers? They are at least accessories to murders, if not murderers themselves. Actually the users are accessories to murder themselves. All those who die in the drug trade, innocents, cartel members, law enforcement and others so the dealers and cartels can supply the users with product (so they can feel good. 😡).

This discounts the billions of dollars thrown at their issue each year… our taxpayer money. Unfair to those of us who don't use drugs and deal with reality. We are the ones being punished, possibly even dead innocent victims of the user or drug lords.

So dealers, users and cartels are all guilty, none are innocent.

🤔 so do we keep following the same pattern that has not worked for decades, actually has gotten worse and worse? Or do we try and think outside the box?

Ideas?💡

Psilocybin cures addiction, 90+ percent success rate with only two treatments. Cure the addiction to eliminate the market, go after the cartels with extreme prejudice. Apply the Rico act to ALL entities which funded or supported the last four years of human trafficking across our borders. Without drugs or human trafficking what do the cartels have left?

"Sinaloa Cartel's cargo train Nike shoe heist latest in long-standing trend: law enforcement
Mexican cartel members recently offloaded $202,500 USD in merchandise from train in Arizona, authorities say"

Inch High Guy +1

I am not defending the Mexican government, the cartels. But if you could destroy the threats from Mexico, some other bunch will fill the void, IMO. I don't know the solution, but it has to be wider than just fighting cartels and building a wall.

It worked for Columbia to degrade and destroy the Cartels there -- too bad Columbians went nuts and elected a former Marxist Revolutionary as their president. Though he's a "Gucci Guerilla" who loves shopping for high-end brands, his policies have set Columbia back.

I'm just glad that none of the above are in charge of American foreign policy.
But don't worry. Now we have people who are even crazier in charge.

How can we invade Greenland, Panama and Mexico if the 101st has been demoted to border guards?

I've heard that Trump doesn't drink. But he sure sounds like the loudest bigmouth at the bar. "And then we ought to this! It will be a beautiful thing."

It is simple economic principles at work. Supply and demand.
As long as there is a demand for drugs in the US someone will fill the need. You could carpet bomb Mexico and kill off every member of a cartel and before long we would have new suppliers. All very sad.

Gratten so how do you break the demand? Not one party or person has had the answer so far.

Instead they rehash the same things over and over. Criminalize, de-criminalize, treatment and rehab, psychiatry, prison… nothing has worked.

Do we declare Marshall Law on drug users and dealers. Caught dealing and we hang you from the nearest light post? Users the first time you get rehab, second you get 20 years with no parole, third you get the lamp post? Yes Draconian and tongue in cheek, but maybe drastic solutions are needed.

The Mexican government in most cases is corrupt or afraid to do anything. The few that try, are taken care of by the out of control cartels. The Mexican people live in fear. The Army and police are the same as the politicians. Throwing money is a waste and only goes into the hands of the corrupt. Mexico is not getting better, US citizens visiting on vacation have been gunned down or kidnapped. So again, what to do about Mexico?

So the soapbox for solutions is open. No: "why we can't". Instead some ideas that might actually solve both situations. Please not the same ones that have consistently failed.. over and over.

@John

Did you read my response to Doc about his Panama question? If not read the concerns about it.

More importantly:

"For decades after its completion in 1914,the United States administered the Panama Canal, an 82 kilometer (51-mile) waterway connecting the Pacific and Atlantic oceans. Full control of the canal was returned to Panama in 1999, but Washington reserved the right to use military force to preserve its neutrality. Some 40% of all US container traffic passes through the canal each year with China as its second biggest user.. "

Greenland:

If nothing else, Trump already got the Danes off their butts and got them to start spending on Greenlands defense.

CNN
—
Denmark said on Monday it would spend 14.6 billion Danish kroner ($2.05 billion) boosting its military capabilities in the Arctic – a decision that comes amid continuing furor following US President Donald Trump's renewed interest in controlling Greenland, a semi-autonomous Danish territory.

The agreement aims to "improve capabilities for surveillance and maintaining sovereignty in the region," according to a statement from Denmark's Ministry of Defense.

"At the same time, support to Allies and NATO's efforts in the Arctic and North Atlantic is essential to strengthening overall security and defense," the statement added.

As part of the investment package, Denmark will fund three new Arctic naval vessels, two long-range drones with the ability to conduct surveillance over large areas and increased admission to Arctic basic military training.

"We must face the fact that there are serious challenges regarding security and defense in the Arctic and North Atlantic," Troels Lund Poulsen, Denmark's minister of defense, said. "For this reason, we must strengthen our presence in the region. That is the objective of this agreement, which paves the way for further initiatives already this year."
"

Also

"Greenland has long been seen as key to US national security interests, particularly to repel a possible Russian attack. But during Trump's first term, national security officials were particularly concerned about China's activities in the Arctic, which at that point were a relatively new threat, a former senior Trump adviser told CNN."

So a little bluster and another European country is increasing their military spending.

Mexico:

I don't see a US attack, but

"On January 20, 2025, President Trump signed an Executive Order designating cartels and other organizations as "Foreign Terrorist Organizations and specially designated global terrorists." This declaration will fundamentally change the approach of local, state and federal counter-narcotics investigations, special operations and prosecutions.

The order will impact every aspect of counter-narcotics policing, from local officers on patrol to state and federal agencies, which now have additional integrated resources at their disposal. Collaboration among police, intelligence agencies and even the military is forthcoming, allowing law enforcement to operate beyond their typical scope and access previously untapped resources for counter-narcotics operations.

Drug-related crimes, in general, have always been criminal acts subject to the normal processes and procedures prescribed by law. While the exact details still need to be determined by the Attorney General, the Secretary of Homeland Security and the Secretary of State, the Executive Order potentially transforms America's rules of engagement with organized narcotics crime, raising it from a crime to a national security threat.

Turning the tables on the cartels and their partners
The battle against cartels is not new, as law enforcement has been fighting the opioid epidemic for years. During that time, U.S. authorities have labeled several organizations as "narco-terrorists"; the Taliban and al-Qaida are two groups well-known to Americans. The difference is that these were existing terrorist organizations that used drug profits to fund their ideals.

The Executive Order flips this around and will designate known narcotics cartels in Mexico and other South American countries as terrorists. Only two criminal groups are mentioned in the order: Tren de Aragua and La Mara Salvatrucha (MS-13). It is expected that additional syndicates will be added to the list soon.

The scope of the Trump administration's order can be understood in terms of America's National Security Strategy, which has operated on a "2+3 framework" since 2017. Russia and China are seen as the greatest threats to America, while North Korea, Iran and terrorism (in general) are considered critical, secondary threats.

The order now includes drug cartels with the three secondary threats, which means law enforcement organizations dealing with them, such as local and state offices, can enlist and collaborate more easily with other state and federal agencies and the Offices of the United States Attorneys.

Investigating and prosecutorial authorities now have significantly more resources, and the cartels and their partners will be charged at a federal level, with the associated harsher penalties. This permits operations across state lines and the ability to target nationwide drug operations instead of being limited to a state or county.

It's important to note that the Executive Order does not target street dealers or those addicted to narcotics. It focuses on the more prominent criminals, for example, those trafficking large quantities of substances such as heroin, cocaine, or fentanyl."

So this does change the landscape for the cartels, placing them right there with al-Qaeda, Isis and others and we know what previous presidents did against them.

But keep in mind, Trump was justly proud that he got us into no new wars during his previous administration. Would he change this time? Well he sure has the liberals brown staining their knickers. 😉

And in other news, Trump has just pardoned a dark web creator who facilitated drug and weapon purchases by post …

I'm concerned about how Trump is destroying concerns our Latin American "Allie's" have about saber rattling over the Panama Canal. He has NOT ruled out military force to retake it.
As Senator S I Hayakawa said ca 1999, " We stole it fair and square. Let's keep it." The spectre of Yanqui Imperialism is still there.

Greenland? Again the threats of military action? What a way to make friends in NATO.

Is he nuts, bloviating about Canada???

I realize that this is the Ultramodern Warfare board, where things are kind of "loosey goosey", but I'm not trying to throw myself in the DH.
And PLEASE refrain from the Logical Fallacy of the "false dichotomy" by asking "Oh, so you would rather have Kamala Harris?"
No. Both are/were disasters in the making. It's the degree and direction of the disaster.

And if I were President of Mexico, I would issue a very clear warning about actions that I would consider Acts of War. It's both facile and stupid to sneer that"we are already at war". 🙄

Nobody is holding a gun to the head of idiots taking fentanyl. Although I do support the death penalty for the heads of the pharmaceutical companies who "popularized" it.

35th, I think a lot of stuff in that Order has already been already happening. Targeting the suppliers is old as the hills…. I think the tools are already there…the order is a bit vague. There are already interagency protocols. I would be concerned about adding another layer of bureaucracy. What agency will lead? The military has a role? There are no details.

The exception might be US companies that do business in Mexico which may indirectly or directly benefit the cartels. They might have to sever ties. Arms manufacturers perhaps? US suppliers, perhaps illegal, provide 80% of the arms used by the cartels. But the terrorist designation might make manufacturers liable.

The actual details of coordinating new missions for the military and enforcement agencies, who are also tuning over staff right now, are not clear to me.

@John

"And if I were President of Mexico, I would issue a very clear warning about actions that I would consider Acts of War. It's both facile and stupid to sneer that"we are already at war". 🙄"

So how should the U.S. handle crimes committed by Mexican citizens on U.S. soil, or the firing on our border patrolman from the soil of Mexico? How about US citizens killed or kidnapped in Mexico. Not just talking about the recent cartel members firing on our border patrolman.

"A Mexican military helicopter flew across the border and fired at U.S. border patrol agents, reports local Arizona news outlet News 4 Tucson. Two shots were fired from the Mexican chopper, but both missed the agents."

When do we stand up straight and stop taking it bent over without even getting the jar of vaseline? 🤔

I am not advocating war, nor I think Trump. But Mexico needs to step up and clean up. If that is accomplished monetarily, more power to Trump.

Also John

" And PLEASE refrain from the Logical Fallacy of the "false dichotomy" by asking "Oh, so you would rather have Kamala Harris?"
No. Both are/were disasters in the making. It's the degree and direction of the disaster."

???
Did I bring up Harris? I don't think so. Speaking of false dichotomy. If I were to speak of disasters, I would have brought up the non-existent President who just left office. The presidency where no one knows who was really running the country.

Roughly 9 days and the liberals and MSM are running around screaming "The sky is falling! The sky is falling!" 😱 "He's going to invade Greenland!! Mexico!! Canada!! Panama!!(i won't rule that out 😉). Then the Sudetenland!! Poland!! We will meet our ally Putin on the border!! We will start the new triumvirate! Xi, Putin and DER F… OPPs 😳, I mean Trump! 😂

I asked EVERYONE to refrain from asking about Harris. Not just you.
And, yes, Sleepy Joe was a disaster. No argument.

I just wish the Republicans had nominated a … rational Republican.
Yes, yes. A RINO. What a stupid insult. It's something that Rush or Skip Bayless would come up with.
Romney? DeSantis? Liz Cheney? (But keep her moron Daddy out of sight…)

Oh, and I'm all on board with using Guantanamo as a "holding" facility. 🤷
I wish there was a constitutional way to do that, but what the heck. That's above my pay grade. 🙄

@John the OFM

How can we invade Greenland, Panama and Mexico if the 101st has been demoted to border guards?

I've heard that Trump doesn't drink. But he sure sounds like the loudest bigmouth at the bar. "And then we ought to this! It will be a beautiful thing."

You're making the mistake of taking Trump literally, but not seriously. Instead take him seriously, not literally.

AND, everyone should know by now that Trump uses hyperbole to cut through the fog and introduce ideas, and start to set expectations on his terms. In sales it's called "anchoring" or "price framing." You set an initial high reference point (the anchor) so that when the actual price is revealed, it appears more favorable in comparison.

So he sets an artificially high reference point -- his anchor is "America will totally buy and control Greenland." So people will react to that and reject the concept of the US outright purchasing Greenland.

But now the VALUE of Greenland is in play. The goal of US interests or control are on the table and then we see the negotiations unfolding, and increased US influence but not outright control will seem like a "win" for Denmark and Greenland when that's probably what Trump had in mind all along.

*Danish PM: "no way, not for sale!"

* Greenland PM: "no way, not for sale -- but we think we want independence from Denmark and to become a sovereign nation and control our future so Denmark can't sell us to the US."

* Danish PM: "Say what!?! We won't sell you!"

* Greenland PM: "Sure, you say that now, but who knows when things could change? Besides, you treat us like a backwater."

*Trump: "Hey Greenland, we'll make you a great deal, we'll invest billions of $$ in infrastructure and defense in you"

* Danish PM: "No, wait, hey Greenland, we love you guys, look, here's a $1.5 USD USD Billion investment!!"

* Greenland PM: "Thanks, but we still want to hold an independence referendum…"

So far Trump has only been troll talking and he's got Greenland talking about independence and Denmark throwing cash at Greenland.

Same thing with Panama! Trump's statements invite immediate push back, BUT, as we see the conversation unfold it went something like this.

Trump, something like: "Panama is giving is a raw deal, a raw deal -- they are violating our agreement and charging US ships to much. We should never have let it go, big mistake. And CHAYNA is all over it. We can't afford to let Chinese troops patrol the Canal."

Pundits: That's crazy talk, there's no Chinese troops in Panama!

Observers: Say…isn't true that China controls the port contracts at both ends of the Canal?

Pundits: Well, yes, but that's not the same things as troops!

Observers: And isn't it also true that China holds the Canal maintenance contracts?

Pundits: Well…

Observers: And isn't it also true that Panama has joined China's strategic "Belt and Road" initiative, is aligned with China and Panamanian politicians get lots of $$$ from China?

Pundits: !@!*)!@_!!

Pretty amazing what Trump Troll Talk has accomplished…

You say he has A Plan.
I just think he's deranged.

He has A and B and C plans. And if he is crazy it is like a fox.

We know he is, shall we say, different. SB has an interesting analysis. I had not thought of him this way, and it makes sense, even though governance is not a bunch of business deals. But he was not elected because we were worried about Greenland and Panama.

Crazy like a Fox, but still too much political propaganda, deflection, and disconnect from campaign promises. What about Ukraine? Food prices? I thought the economy was terrible? The right claims victimhood at the hands of Dems? Get over it. The blame will shift now, and the buck will no longer stop with Biden, except as a scapegoat. The Dems are completely out of power until the congressional election.

All this Project 25 stuff is gratifying for some, but a grave concern for others. Freezing federal grants could hurt quality of life in many red states. Several in particular get more federal aid than they pay for with taxes. The chaos that this could cause in the absence of any alternate plans from the WH or Congress is hard to figure. But Biden will get the blame if it flops. And there is already some walking back.

So we hope that SBs assessment is correct. But this is a scary way to run a democracy. I did not think we could become more divided – the real top issue.

Tort those who fear Trump, are just finding out how those of us who disliked and did not trust either Obama or Biden felt during their administrations. You are just seeing the angst written and expressed from the other side. You are also finding out, by what is said, what media and web sources they read. I'm reading here the same things I'm hearing and reading from the MSM sources.

Not more divided, same divisions.

Looking for a difference? Ok I'll give you a personnel experience.

My wife's siblings have just cut off association with her. Not totally new. Her brother has since the first Trump presidency. Now her sister has as well. Why? Because she voted for and backed Trump. Her brother is gay and between Trumps last term, one of her sister's girls went from being married to a man, divorced and decided she is gay. They believe Trump hates gays and one even believes they will either imprison or kill gays. No amount of reason will change their beliefs. This is what they hear from their friends, the media and certain politicians. They both tried to demand my wife denounce President Trump.

The difference you ask? Neither my wife or I attempted to change their beliefs when we opposed Biden or Obama. We even avoided talking politics around them, but my wife's family did not. Even going so far as to put on The View when we were there in the afternoon. We do not try to force others to our view. If one wants to discuss it we will. Discussion isn't something most Trump haters want, they just want to throw rhetoric back at you and you must believe them.

You are actually one of the few I know who will discuss it. 🙂

Just something taught, maybe as one learned to salute.

Way of the Wolf…..when the ears go up, the mouth goes shut.

Thinkin' it's post discussion, now time to heavily invest in those popcorn futures.

35th, you are a credible researcher and have respect for others. When we disagree we can keep talking. We both love our country. Our differences are not personal. 👍

So we hope that SBs assessment is correct. But this is a scary way to run a democracy. I did not think we could become more divided – the real top issue.

We are so divided because of fight between the Establishment and We The People. The grifters of both Parties have entrenched for years to the point where the kind of stuff we see revealed with Hunter Biden's shakedown game is par for the course. They profit and we pay. Closer to home, Gov Newsom made a big deal about banning fracking in CA…but then also gave exemptions to the oil interests managed by political allies…and now Mayor Bass of LA is exploiting a new legal corruption law that exempts the need to disclose $$$ and political contributions from contractors who bid in a public contract, and is giving a sole-source contract to a crony to manage the rebuilding process in burned out communities. In your face corruption.

And in the process they pit the People against each other. They get this side to hate that side, aided by the structural format of social media like Facebook which uses click-tracking to steer more and more aligned content to you until many people live in an information bubble and *never see or feel the need to understand opposing views*. You need to be active to break out -- read HuffPo AND Breitbart daily and read between the lines.

Trump is the symptom of this. He wasn't supposed to win, Hillary and Biden were anointed by the Grifter class and were supposed to crush dissent and deepen the game. She lost, and he lost, and Trump's the first outsider I can think of who won. Why do you think so much of the GOP Establishment still hates him? They are part of the same game, and this outsider came in and threatened the gravy train in 2017 and now again in 2025!

I see him as the Chemo for the Cancerous Grifters dragging down our country. From Taibbi's book , "Hate" – "The shaping of the public into antagonistic tribes works commercially. It works politically. But it is a recipe for social disintegration. I watched competing ethnic groups in the former Yugoslavia seize rival mass media outlets and use them to spew vitriol and hate against the ethnic group they demonized. The poisonous images and rhetoric that were pumped out month after month in Yugoslavia led to a savage fratricide."

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John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP 30 Jan 2025 3:06 a.m. PST
You say he has A Plan.
I just think he's deranged.

His first term in office says otherwise. We had lower taxes and fewer regulations, and cheap gasoline and energy that came from energy independence so we didn't have to suck up to the Saudis, a booming economy, a strong US dollar, higher quality of life and lower cost of living, historic low unemployment, prison reform, multi-year funding for HBCUs, forcing NATO to pay their fair share, dismantling ISIS and putting Iran and Russia back in the box, organizing push-back to China, historic peace deals between Israel and Arab States, peace deals in the Balkans and a strong attempt to decouple North Korea from China, and no new wars.