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"Small arms wagon at Hougoumont" Topic


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531 hits since 2 Jan 2025
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Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP02 Jan 2025 7:59 a.m. PST

This chap Brewster or Brewer is oft shown saving the day at Hougoumont by turning up with an ammo resupply. An observer who pointed out the need to him described his vehicle as a "tumbril". He was the sole driver and "horses", in the plural, are mentioned. Beyond that all I have on his conveyance is this well known picture. What is shown looks like a Russian or Prussian design, with that pitched roof. Indeed the latter is what now is seen in the courtyard in the Waterloo in 20mm model. I want to add a few more around the field and wonder if anyone has ever sen any other representation of such.

Perrys show something similar but single draft and much longer for the AWI and this may have been an evolution of that? Any help MUCH appreciated

picture

Greylegion02 Jan 2025 8:21 a.m. PST

Watching this with interest, now.

CHRIS DODSON Supporting Member of TMP02 Jan 2025 8:32 a.m. PST

That is a nice picture.

I found this at Speria.

link

It may be more of an artillery cassion but it fits the ‘tumbrel' ( tumbrill) description and is described as ammunition supply not a cassion.

The normal supply vehicles are like what you have already modelled.

Another option is a farm tumbrill, loaded with ammunition as an expedient due to the circumstances. However, a farm tumbrel is normally a one horse affair and Captain Horace Seymour ( 18th Hussars) stated that Brewer started ‘ his horses' following the order to re supply the garrison.

He also states the word tumbrel rather than wagon suggesting in my mind a smaller vehicle than the standard army piece.

I personally think the Speria , in the absence of any other information would fit the bill, driven by the splendid Royal Wagon Train , Private Brewer.

Best wishes,

Chris

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP02 Jan 2025 9:24 a.m. PST

I seem to have read that the method of supply of ammo to the infantry is one of the mysteries of Waterloo.

We all know the tale of the KGL at LHS and the lack of Rifle ammunition. Whatever it was in overturned on the road South according to some accounts, but surely there was enough to go around from neigbouring units. I find it hard to imagine that resupply of something so basic was not centrally controlled, rather than at individual regimental level. "We are the 28th. Where is our ammo cart? That is a 42nd cart….yuk. Take it away"

I have a vague recollection of a youth over by Papelotte sent to the rear and returning rolling a barrel of small arms ammo down the slope.

Whatever the transport it had better be rainproof!

Chris Dodson is right that the Speria 3D Print is of an artillery caisson. An impressed farm cart of course is possible. But thousands and thousands of men go to fight your battle, carrying ready use ammo in a small hip pouch. Forget the admin needed to feed them, to care for the injured, to bury the dead. One of the first priorities must have been a well organised resupply for small arms

CHRIS DODSON Supporting Member of TMP02 Jan 2025 10:59 a.m. PST

Hi,

I dug this up which makes a deal of sense regarding re supply of units.

A point often overlooked is that the fouling after up to sixty rounds will require complete cleaning of the musket and flint replacement.

As a general overview, the Royal Artillery was responsible for small arms ammunition stocks, transported and stored en masse in the Artillery Park; from that point, supplies of ammunition would be sent forward in one-horse carts or 'tumbrils' (drivers from the Royal Wagon Train?) to brigades where Brigade Major should arrange for individual casks of ball-cartridge to be laden on mules (supplied by the Commissary Dept) to be delivered to battalions where it would be stockpiled- still in casks- behind the firing line. The Quartermaster and QM sergeants, as well as other NCOs would be involved in delivering rounds to soldiers' pouches. Should the ammunition mules fail to make it forward 'from brigade' -not always a clearly defined place in the order of battle- then it might be necessary for soldiers to be sent back to locate the tumbrils and if necessary bring ammunition forward without waiting to transferring casks to mules, as happened at Hougoumont on 18th June 1815

General Orders 20th June 1810:

The commanding officer of the artillery will attach to the new divisions of infantry the same proportion of musket ammunition and flints for their numbers as is attached to the other divisions; and he will make a requisition upon the Commissary General for mules to carry it.

William Surtees (25 Years in the Rifle Brigade):
After a considerable quantity of ammunition had been expended by my battalion, it became my duty to look out for a fresh supply. I accordingly posted off to the rear, where I expected to find some mules which had been attached to us, with ammunition on their backs; but on my way thither, the ground was actually ploughing up on all sides by the enemy's large shot, and their musket balls falling very thick; so much so, that some of our mules far to the rear had been wounded, and the others had dispersed… Some ammunition for our rifles was, however, found in a one-horse cart belonging to the artillery, and out of it those whose ammunition was expended were replenished.

Richard Henegan (Seven Years Campaigning):
At Vittoria, each infantry soldier, on entering the field, had sixty rounds of ball cartridge in his cartouch box for immediate use… As near as possible to the divisions of the army, were brigades of small-arms ammunition to feed the expenditure; and from the commencement to the close of the engagement 1,350,000 rounds of ball cartridge were issued by the Field Train to the troops.

John Cooper (Rough Notes of Seven Campaigns):
The colonel put his hands on my shoulders and said "Serjeant Cooper, go up the hill and tell the brigade-major to send down ammunition immediately, or we must retire." This was necessary, as our men were taking cartridges out of the wounded men's pouches. I scrambled up the steep, and performed my duty with difficulty, as my legs would hardly obey me. I then dragged a Spaniard with his mule laden with ball cartridge down to my company.

Browne of the 40th Foot mentions following at Waterloo
'Boxes of ammunition were placed at intervals along our rear, from about fifty to a hundred paces from us, so that the men could help themselves when they required it.'

Siborne's 'Waterloo Letters' No. 176
Cooper of the 7th refers to re-equipping the unit with casks of cartridges unloaded from a mule.

Macready of the 30th mentions following at Waterloo~
'Our ammunition decreased alarmingly-at length our artillery waggon 'galluped' up emptied two or three casks of cartridges into the square and we were comfortable.'

(Notes compiled from answers to my question on a thread on the old 'Napoleonic Wars Forum.')

42flanker02 Jan 2025 11:06 a.m. PST

'Tumbril' or 'tumbrel' was the term used to describe a two- wheeled cart used to transport both small arms and artillery ammunition in this period. The vehicle illustrated is of the type used in the period, with a cover of pitched canvas. If a pair of horses was used, it is possible that these were still being harnessed 'in tandem'- (i.e. in line ahead rather than abreast) which was common at the start of the period- cf Pyne's illustrations from the early 1800s and may have persisted until somebody had bothered to design a new cart with a pole rather than the traditional pair of shafts.

42flanker02 Jan 2025 11:14 a.m. PST

Ha! well caught Chris. I was about to quote those very notes. If I may I'll add my summary from that 2015 thread in the sorely missed NWF.

EDIT Ah, I see you included that too.

The Hanoverian Brigade in Clinton's 2nd Division had ammunition carts, drawn by six horses, that could carry 24,000 rounds of small arms ammunition but obviously were less manoeuvrable and not suitable for bringing up to the forefront of the action.

CHRIS DODSON Supporting Member of TMP02 Jan 2025 11:14 a.m. PST

A bit of trawling found this.

FIELD FORGES OF THE BRITISH ARMY 1700-1900

jstor
jstor.org › stable
by WG Child · 1983 · Cited by 1 — vehicle, called a tumbril, which was a two wheeled cart with straight, planked sides. The term 'tumbril' was not a specifically military one but was applied.

Perhaps the Speria item is not so far off with a bit of work?

Best wishes,

Chris

42flanker02 Jan 2025 11:27 a.m. PST

'Tumbril' was originally used to describe a two-wheeled farm cart which, being easily tipped back was well suited for carrying contents that could be "tumbled" out the rear, notably manure. (It occurs to me this might have been the significanc of their use in the French Revolution).

CHRIS DODSON Supporting Member of TMP02 Jan 2025 11:39 a.m. PST

Further news from the front.

The Rocket troop had a tumbrill cart as standard as depicted by Hat in their set amongst others.

Whilst this seems designed to operate with a limber the principal construction seems relevant.

Lots to do.

Chris

Best wishes

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP02 Jan 2025 11:47 a.m. PST

By pure chance I was seeing this little car "similar" (?) to that one in the photo…


picture


picture


picture


From here


link

Armand

42flanker02 Jan 2025 11:51 a.m. PST

Muller's 'Treatise of Artillery' p 125 has dimensions of a 'tumbrel ibid. powder cart;" with accompanying drawing.

loc.gov/item/2004673528

link

also a common or garden 'tumbrel'

link

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP03 Jan 2025 6:57 a.m. PST

What fantastic responses. I am so grateful to Chris Dodson and 42flanker, but also to Tango who is always so encouraging.

42flanker03 Jan 2025 8:44 a.m. PST

Thumbs up. Like. Smiley face.

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP03 Jan 2025 12:07 p.m. PST

Toujours à ton service mon cher ami…(smile)


Armand

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