"Not a wet market?" Topic

They didn't tell us the truth again?! 😮 😳 Say it ain't so Joe!

🤔 wow! Maybe those drones aren't all Venus and airplanes.

"But the researchers' analysis compiled dozens of data points in favor of a lab leak — compared with a "paucity of evidence supporting the natural origin theory," a source familiar with their investigation told The Post.

The analysis was conducted by John Hardham, Robert Cutlip and Jean-Paul Chretien, three scientists in the Defense Intelligence Agency's National Center for Medical Intelligence, which is tasked with examining potential biological weapons threats and dangerous infectious diseases.

Among their damning findings:

The COVID virus contained a feature allowing for easier transmission to humans that was constructed in a manner similar to that described in a years-old Chinese study

A Chinese military researcher applied for a patent for a COVID-19 vaccine just weeks after the virus was first sequenced in 2020. (He later died after falling from the infamous Wuhan Institute of Virology's roof, according to US investigators.)

WIV researchers worked with US researchers who trained them to construct viruses without leaving a trace of them being engineered."

Subject: Spy bosses 'silenced' Defense Department, FBI scientists from briefing Biden on COVID lab leak evidence


link

35th I don't mind believing this story at this point. I also appreciate that China nearly destroyed their own economy, created rare civil unrest, and probably suffered more casualties than we know. That the lid was kept on the lab origin explanation may have had some negative impact on how to treat the virus..I have no idea.And maybe it was done to keep us from blowing up peaceful relations with China in a crisis.

You can take many political positions on the Covid epidemic. Trump was inept and in denial. Those press conferences were painful examples of lack of leadership capabilities, some of the cringiest public appearances ever by an American president.

Biden's advisors, and I say advisors because we can't tell what kind of shape he was in back then, caused long term damage by various solutions that may or may not have helped slow the spread, but also hurt education, the supply chain and helped bring on inflation, as I understand it. That the American economy recovered so quickly was miraculous compared to the rest of the world, despite the having highest Covid death rate. But we never felt all that confidant about how the government handled Covid.

The story is from the WSJ, but they require a subscription.

From my perspective it is another in the long line of lies propagated by the administration, which helped to destroy the credibility of the government. Hence why I so doubt anything they tell me about the drones.

I believe it was also egged on by those like Fauci, who had vested interest in gain of function research and will probably get his "get out of jail free" card before the 21st. 🤮

Lastly, but most importantly.., it killed millions and caused lifelong harm to others.

If you remember, Trump tried to freeze travel from China and was immediately called a racist. The media now tries to Pooh Pooh it and do some revisionist rewrites of history.

Or Nancy P and her telling people to come down to China Town and party.

""It's exciting to be here, especially at this time," said Pelosi as she walked surrounded by media and onlookers. "To be able to be unified with our community.

We want to be vigilant about what might be on the horizon -- what is out there in other places. We want to be careful how we deal with it (coronavirus). But we do want to say to people, come to Chinatown. Here we are, again, careful, safe, and come join us.""

So even if you believe Trump did it wrong… he had plenty of help and hinderance from the other side, including the "Evil Doctor Fauci". 👿

I like Fauci! But the whole thing was a mess…look at the CDC. No confidence in them now. Yes hopefully we have learned our lesson.

Well … I think it is and was pretty clear from the beginning. The CCP was working on a virus that could be very virulent and easily transmitted to humans. No wet market, however, it may have been an accident that it was released or not. Regardless millions are dead … And the PRC/CCP is to blame. And how many in the US Gov't was covering for them ?

+1 35th.

I like Fauci!

How?? The ev1l little shite HELP CAUSE COVID! He was upset that the US Congress banned gain of function research on viruses in the US as being too potentially dangerous, so he gave contract to third party research firm to do gain of function research outside of the US – the primary one being "Eco Health Alliance" who performed their work AT the Wuhan Lab in China!

At long last, National Institutes of Health (NIH) principal deputy director Lawrence Tabak admitted to Congress Thursday that US taxpayers funded gain-of-function research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology in China in the months and years before the COVID-19 pandemic.

"Dr. Tabak," asked Rep. Debbie Lesko (R-Ariz.) of the Select Subcommittee on the Coronavirus Pandemic, "did NIH fund gain-of-function research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology through [Manhattan-based nonprofit] EcoHealth [Alliance]?"

"It depends on your definition of gain-of-function research," Tabak answered. "If you're speaking about the generic term, yes, we did."

link

Fauci KNEW this and LIED about it repeatedly to CYA.

And even though he uses weasel words, Fauci also has admitted that there was NO scientific basis for the social distance and masking rule he promoted.

COVID guidelines caused millions to suffer. Now Fauci admits 'there was no science behind it.'
Dr. Anthony Fauci told members of Congress that the COVID guidelines he preached in 2020 had no scientific support.

link

Fauci and his compatriots put the world through hell, and he should be held accountable.

Maybe he will head to Brazil, like his hero did. 😡

I just do not agree. The culture wars and political divisiveness have made it all but impossible to even discuss this.

I have heard and accepted that mistakes were made, but also that the unique complexities of the virus made much of the public health response difficult. The finding that transmission could be asymptomatic, for example. Just one of many surprising challenges that kept coming up. The WH Office of Pandemic Response had been closed in 2018. We did not hit the ground running, except in vaccine development. And the messaging was not well handled by Fauci and Trump.

Fauci rarely got a chance to explain the reasons why the CDC advised as it did. I think of the completely useless grilling from Jim Jordan, Rand Paul. They questioned Fauci but prevented him from responding. The science was over their heads, anyway, IMO, and Fauci had trouble boiling down his science based responses for the public to understand. But their show was @#$&.

Fauci and the scientific community did have a few dissenters among them, but they had more consensus than we have been led to believe, IMO.The were flying in the dark sometimes with a new type of virus that became a political cudgel. But they also gave advice that was ultimately validated. Not point in rehashing resulting data here. Political loyalties killed more Covid victims than anything else. My opinion. Fauci and his peers did the best they could with a highly contagious and not fully understood new virus. My opinion. The Wuhan "lab leak" may have come from staff bringing the virus in from the outside. My opinion.

SB and 35th, we will not be able to change our respective minds on this one, I think.

"I like Fauci." That says it all.

"…we will not be able to change our respective minds on this one…"

On that, we agree.

Tell me about it. On the one hand, synthetic analysis; on the other- well, you said it. This is why I don't usually bother with these types of threads any more.

"That says it all" No it doesn't.

I have an opinion. That's all.

My opinion changed. I liked Fauci at the start when he seemed like the gruff no-nonsense pro who told it like it was.

Then my opinion CHANGED based on NEW INFORMATION as it became available.

And what has been ESTABLISHED AS FACT is that Fauci directed contracts to third parties who did gain of function research in China to bypass domestic restrictions, and that there was NO SCIENTIFIC BASIS for the extreme lockdown and masking he promoted.

Then I've seen his testimony on these issues, and he has used transparent sophisms and deflections and false umbrage to avoid any responsibility for his own established actions.

Now I very much DISLIKE him.

SBminisguy +1

There was a medical doctor from a well-respected German university who had great credentials but a lousy history and bedside manner: his name was Mengele. In my opinion, he and the misanthrope Fauci have much in common.

SB I also have come to like him a bit less, mostly because he was not good at making the science understandable to everyday people. But I do not agree that your assertions are as cut and dried as you and others here believe. It's just too long and off the track to dive into the science and politics here. I have opinions, no professional expertise. I am something of a marked man here and I don't fell like getting strung up over this.

We should be able to trust the CDC, but they proved themselves to be incapable or incompetent in this case.

I sat in on our county's EMA medical briefing, and our immunology specialist said the sky is not falling and people are overreacting. There were doctors from top medical schools who disagreed with the CDC and they were shut down and their posts were deleted from social media platforms in order to keep the public from becoming "confused" over the issue. Anyone who questioned what was going on was a right wing nut job or a conspiracy theorist, or both.

The CDC clown show did more to destroy lives, the economy, business, education, and the social development of young people than anything in living memory.

And yet the people who applauded those actions and urged them on remain strangely unrepentant-and in my experience, unwilling to accept even a shred of moral responsibility for the damage they did.

I assume Biden will issue a pardon to Fauci on Jan 19- but that's not all bad, as he will lose the ability to refuse to testify on Fifth Amendment grounds (but will still be subject to perjury if he lies). We should learn some interesting things.

All I know is my wife caught it from a child in her class whose parents sent him to school without a mask and coughing over everyone. Typhoid Mary indeed.

COVID did a number and at one point her liver was shutting down. She survived, but only barely.

I have zero proof the infected kid was indeed the one who infected her, but the sheer stupidity and callous disregard of parents and general Luddites in the face of catastrophe is beyond criminal. She could have caught it somewhere else, though with safeguards in place and distancing this seems somewhat unlikely.

The callous behaviour level in general society for fellow man is worse than it has ever been. Such that it leaves even the most stalwart and best imbued remarked with suspicion at every turn.

Tell you what, sport, if you're going to jump on here and start blasting away with your advocacy for a demonstrably failed regime of shock treatment that disoriented our society and economy in ways it still hasn't recovered from, you want to start with something a little stronger than "all I know" and "I have zero proof."

Because it's exactly that kind of semi informed pseudo-reasoning (delivered with the usual passionate intensity) that led to those solutions in the first place. You may have "zero proof," but I have very definite proof of the struggles my children had to go through because we shut down the world for almost two years- so seen from my perspective, you look to me like you're displaying exactly the kind of callous behavior you're decrying.

So you have a disease that kills a certain percentage of those who catch it, which is passed from person to person by coughs and sneezes and close contact. The percentage of seriously affected is enough to overwhelm the hospitals if everyone catches it at the same time, and without hospital treatment an even higher proportion will die.

What should you do to reduce transmission? Go around kissing each other ?

Yes, there were damaging effects, but large numbers of lives were saved by staying away from other people. Ultimately we were fortunate that the virus evolved to a less virulent form.

It went way beyond "damaging effects." It was an utterly unprecedented exercise of authority that caused massive destruction across the economy, and that was used to justify the assumption of extraordinary and often unconstitutional powers (and their whimsical exercise) by elected and unelected officials alike. People lost their livelihoods, and more – it's wrong to trivialize that.

A lot of communicable diseases are fatal; there are (and always have been) means to control transmission. That's no excuse for what happened.

First Augustus, glad your wife pulled through.

This morning we had another example of why the trust in our governmental agencies are so low.

We had a mass killing in New Orleans this morning. A man ran a truck through a crowd on Bourbon St. He then got out and started shooting.

They just had a press conference. The police chief calls it a terrorist act. Her subordinate calls it intentional, the man was not drunk and the man ran around the barricades. The FBI is taking over. Next the lead FBI agent comes on and says, "This is not a terrorist act", but then goes on to say there are IED's. What??!! I believe they are closing down 13 blocks.

Ok… this is a terrorist act, no matter foreign or domestic. Why does the FBI agent deny it? No point after the local police say it was and the agent says there are IED's.

"NEW ORLEANS (AP) — New Orleans mayor says New Year's Day mass casualty incident was a ‘terrorist attack.'"

"Alethea Duncan, an assistant special agent in charge of the FBI's New Orleans field office, said officials were investigating the discovery of at least one suspected improvised explosive device at the scene."

"The FBI is now taking over the investigation, which has raised further questions about the nature of the attack. Special Agent Althea Duncan stated that the incident was "not a terrorist event," contradicting earlier remarks by Mayor Cantrell, who had referred to it as such. Authorities have found "improvised explosive devices" at the scene, but Duncan emphasized that their potential for harm was still being assessed."

I understand that there is the Sugar Bowl there today, but it is too late to stop people being scared there now. Also this is very much like the vehicle terrorist acts in Europe.

A mass casualties event like this, is an act of terrorism.. no matter the source of the perpetuator.

If someone you know or dear to you died, then you have my sincere sympathies as that is best anyone can give on the internet.

If they nearly died or were physically left damaged, then I am sorry, as I know the sheer scale of what that means and the damage in the extreme you may still be suffering.

If what happened was education or schedule was disrupted, it was pandemic. You, again, have sympathies, but education can be reclaimed and maybe some resiliency is now with your children where it was not before. Not being able to attend class in person is a very small price to pay if it saves a life.

There is a drastic difference on this scale and by this point, recovery should be well on its way.

But please, sport, do not even think sufferings of school or schedule are any comparison to loss and death.

🤕😵‍💫
Over a million American lives were lost. In 2020, medical personnel were being killed by the virus, working long shifts, no way to save many of the victims. People said goodbye to their loved ones through hospital glass. Bodies stored in refrigerator trucks on the street. The virus began to mutate. It does not take science to grasp the basic fact that lives were saved by reducing close contact. An N95 mask properly worn could prevent transmission. Otherwise medical personnel casualties would have been catastrophic. The system was near collapse.

There were many difficult choices to make. Transmission was asymptomatic, officials were trying to save lives above all, without the knowledge and tools they needed. The foe was a new type of virus, unpredictable. Long Covid sufferers appeared. In the end, a combination of factors slowed the death rate. The consequences were damaging to people on many levels.

Augustus, I hope your wife has fully recovered.

The political narrative here is just too difficult to reconcile. We cannot disagree and make progress from our differences. The whole blamer culture of accuse and respond is an endless cycle of anger. Outrage is the automatic reaction. Cynical, caustic, cutting. We are bitterly divided across every aspect of life. The anger is fatal, as in permanent, IMO. Civil discourse, respect, is more or less gone in public life. You got that right Augustus, so +1.

It went well beyond that – but I'm not going to try the demi-verge tricks of wrapping myself in the bloody shirt or smarmy faux-sanctimonious sympathy to make my point. I lost friends and family members, just like everyone else did- and it's clear to me that lockdown did nothing to save them.

The destruction that our policies wrought to the nation was enormous. Huge swathes of the country have not returned to their 2019 level, and may never do so- commercial real estate, for example, has taken an astronomical hit. Public transportation is gutted. And for all the attempts to try to make it appear as if there was only a choice between the lockdown we got and enormous casualties, that's wrong, too- Sweden rejected draconian policies, and survived the lockdown without paying the price we paid.

We paid that price, not because we had to, but because the leaders who were in charge made bad decisions- in some cases knowingly. Here in PA, they sent Covid patients to nursing homes knowing the elderly were vulnerable- and one I can think of pulled his mother out. If I'm outraged, it's because outrageous things were done, in many cases by people who used the power of emotional outrage to do them, rather than any constitutional authority. What that precedent will ultimately lead to, I can hardly say- but I wouldn't be surprised if it comes with a body count of its own.

Let me add to my comments:

Why is it important to know if it is terrorism?

Tonight is the Sugar Bowl. If I am in New Orleans with my family for the game, I have to make a decision to go to the game or not. If a lone actor, I go. If this is a possible group planned attack, I err on possible caution. In addition we have 2 other major targets today, the Rose Bowl and Peach Bowl.

35th and SB, I respect your willingness to assume good faith, absence of an irrelevant personal agenda, and basic intelligence on the part of the people you're arguing with- even though it would seem in some cases an electron microscope is probably the instrument required to detect them.

The bloody shirt again, or what I like to call "a different opinion from yours"…Now the electron microscope! Smarmy and sanctimonious… and demi-verge tricks – here I needed the electron microscope dictionary.

Nine Pound – you make a lot of great points on TMP, I respect your expertise and obvious experience, your professional perspective. Enlightening and appreciated, ie your post on the Russian railroads among many examples. Maybe you could disagree with someone while cutting back on the harsh subjective judgements about personal qualities and opinions? You don't have to like anybody or their opinions.

One of the reasons I dislike you is your inability to characterize others' opinions honestly- although, in fairness to you, I am not sure if this is a defect of integrity, reading comprehension, or some broader failing.

"Waving the bloody shirt" is an attempt to dissuade argument by claiming the moral high ground, on the basis of personal suffering. It's a form of fallacy, and it's usually meant as an attempt to shame those with whom one disagrees into silence. You can reread this thread, and figure out for yourself what I am referring to.

Since you feel like it's your business to tell me what I might do, let me offer you some advice: perhaps you should consider some self-examination about what you post, and the degree to which it provokes irritation.

" The FBI said that the driver is dead and that authorities are investigating the incident as an act of terrorism."

😞

Subject: Paul Villarreal (AKA Vince Manfeld) on X: "Fox News reports that the truck used in the deadly New Orleans incident crossed the southern border from Mexico into the USA at Eagle Pass, Texas two days ago. Also (see reply), Newsweek reports that the vehicle was purchased in August 2024. . t.co/p4VENMHmCk / X


link

Amen Nine Pound Round

Nine pound round, isn't it you who is claiming the moral high ground on the basis of personal suffering ? I have every sympathy with your loss, and am lucky not to have lost anyone myself. I just don't understand why you completely reject the efforts made to reduce the number of deaths.

Here in the UK, shortly after the first lockdown was lifted, I was in a shop with a woman who stated loudly that there was no virus, it was all a conspiracy, and on that basis she didn't need to wear a mask, etc., etc. After she was asked to leave the shop, a man close to me (well, six feet away !) said how he strongly objected to her and her views as he had just lost his brother to the disease and had another relative still in Intensive Care.

No- I was pointing out that others suffered as well.

I object to lockdown because I don't believe it worked – and because the consequences it unleashed went far beyond the merely medical, and are going to be with us for a long time to come.

I don't actually dislike you. I don't get the personalized, condescending anger. Why demean me because I express an opinion? So you won't be irritated? We should all watch out for irritating differing views here and respond as you sometimes do? I recognize that your fairness to me is not actually meant to be fair. There is no need for personal insults here. They are not an equivalent of irritating, but go beyond that, IMO.

So, in rereading the thread, I was thinking that the reality of what I believe actually happened to people in 2020 had been subjugated by a new narrative in which the suffering derived from high handed policies was paramount. So I posted what I remember of that experience. Maybe this was an irritant for you and Gray Bear, much as the reference to Mengele was to me.

There was no underlying devious reason for my posts. I just don't agree.

Because I resent having to waste my time responding to someone who obviously has trouble reading and writing, lest what I have said be misrepresented to – and misunderstood by – other readers. The comment you discuss in your last post- the source of that "bloody shirt" line- was not directed to your post that preceded it, it was obviously a reply to someone else. For reasons that are internal to you, you made it appear as if I tossed it out simply because I disagreed with you- when in reality, I didn't see anything that your preceding post that interested me in the slightest, and had no intention of responding to it. I was talking to someone else.

NPR, perhaps you should make it clear which post you are answering. Otherwise people will assume you are answering them when you are not.

"Someone who obviously has trouble reading and writing" The very definition of a personal attack and completely unnecessary (and yes, I know it was not intended for me !). Some people just disagree with your views on the pandemic.

The restrictions may have saved up to two million lives in the US, by my finger-in-the-air estimate. Maybe more. With hospitals overwhelmed, and effectively no intensive care, the million who went into intensive care and survived would have died instead (UK, 50% of intensive care patients died, 50% survived in the early days). And more would have caught the disease and died.

I should point out that I mistakenly assumed that my post would follow Nine's, but others got in ahead of me.

Nine, I was not assuming you directed your bloody shirt at me, but I won't trouble you to go back and look. It is a phrase you use. Who you meant it for was not the point. It appeared here and I commented on your choice of words and tone regardless of who it was for. Too personal and cutting IMO.

The terrorist truck driver was an American citizen and was of Arabic decent. Plus a Vet, of the US Military …

Good way to start the New Year !!!!

"There are at least 4 to 5 others involved, sources tell FOX Digital.

Waiting on official confirmation from FBI at an upcoming press conference.
Quote

Aishah Hasnie
@aishahhasnie
3h
Suspect identified as Shamsud Din Jabbar, sources tell FOX Digital. He was carrying a Glock and a .308 rifle that has been reported stolen in New Jersey. The 308 was equipped with optics and a suppressor."
…
"The suspect was carrying an ISIS flag in the truck, according to sources."
…
"-Suspect is 42 year old Shamsud-Din Jabbar, a U.S. citizen from Texas.
-He was driving a Ford pickup truck, which appears to have been rented and FBI is working to confirm how the subject came into possession of the vehicle.
-An ISIS flag was located in the vehicle and the FBI is working to determine the subject's potential associations and affiliations with terrorist organizations. -Weapons and a potential IED were located in the subject's vehicle.
-Other potential IEDs were also located in the French Quarter."

They have postponed the sugar bowl and are searching the stadium again.

There was nothing unjustifiably personal about the term or the way I used it, but it's clear you can't be bothered to pay even a modicum of attention to what was said, or how it was used- which is exactly the reason I have said repeatedly (here and elsewhere) that you can't be trusted to argue in good faith.

Thanks for vindicating my argument.

Although I obviously agree with Gray Bear, SB, Nine and some others on Covid and Fauci (and a lot politically I believe) , I will say that I believe Tort has always tried to be honest with his discussions and no ill intent was intended by him.

He and I disagree on much politically😉 But he is NE and i believe worked for the government. I am Midwest and worked in the private sector. So our perspectives are different.

Have to respectfully disagree, 35th- as I said, the context of the bloody shirt remark was clearly criticism of an argumentative style- but he's characterizing that as something I just say to people who disagree with me. That can only be dishonesty, or incomprehension.

Thanks 35th. I respect Nine's knowledge base..and I am not trying to irritate him. Best to let it go now.

Another attack in Vegas at the Trump Hotel….no casualties but the bomber. Not good….

"Another attack in Vegas at the Trump Hotel….no casualties but the bomber. Not good…."

Yep.. been watching that. Fortunately no casualties. But with 4 to 5 in NO still out there… 😓

"
"The FBI also reported to me that mere hours before the attack, he posted videos on social media indicating they were inspired by ISIS expressing a desire to kill, the desire to kill," Biden said during the speech. "The ISIS flag was found in his vehicle, which he rented to conduct this attack."
"

Are we beginning to see Islamic Cells that we have allowed into our country? let's hope not. Some things said today by politicians, made me and some in the media believe more is going on, than was been said so far.

The car that blew up in front of Trump's hotel in Vegas was Tesla EV. It was the newer silver pick-up truck version, Which IIRC, Musk's company makes it … A message ?

I sat in on our county's EMA medical briefing, and our immunology specialist said the sky is not falling and people are overreacting. There were doctors from top medical schools who disagreed with the CDC and they were shut down and their posts were deleted from social media platforms in order to keep the public from becoming "confused" over the issue. Anyone who questioned what was going on was a right wing nut job or a conspiracy theorist, or both.

My sister was an RN, very experienced and senior, and when she saw what was happening to patients she objected and got punished for it. For example, she and colleagues quickly discovered that putting someone on ventilators was a death sentence -- the patients *never* recovered but spiraled to death. She objected and suggested some other treatment paths that had been used before and was told this was the NIH-approved treatment path so shut up if you want to keep your job. She also says that many patients came in who did not have primary Covid symptoms or just had a basic injury, but because the patient tested positive for Covid proteins/anti-bodies they were declared to be Covid patients and put on Covid treatment paths that were unnecessary and possibly dangerous to their health and vastly inflated the number of Covid patients counted. Then she discovered that a hospital got a bonus $13,000 USD for EVERY Covid patient they declared, and they got another $39,000 USD for EVERY Covid patient who went on a ventilator. As new evidence came out that Covid didn't cause "normal" congestion in the lungs, but actually interfered with body's red blood cells ability to transport oxygen molecules so NO amount of overpressure by ventilators would help, all you did was stress a person's body to failure. SHUT UP! DO WHAT WE SAY OR ELSE! She felt betrayed by the system, that the hospital Admin staff and "leaders" were basically condemning people to death by ventilator for cash, and she retired.