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"Lancers and levade posture" Topic


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Stoppage23 Dec 2024 3:59 a.m. PST

This is from the Pavia display in the Royal Armouries Leeds (UK).

The foreground horse is collected into the "levade" posture – all the weight on the rear legs – ready to spring forward.

More useful with the lance (see background rider) than a sword.

flickr.com/photos/45777493@N06/6289610932

Personal logo Herkybird Supporting Member of TMP23 Dec 2024 4:41 a.m. PST

Its funny how the lancer is leaning back, I always thought the rider leaned forward at the charge to allow himself to absorb the shock as well as being a smaller target!
Maybe he has just speared something? – or am I just overthinking it?
Nice pics anyway, thanks for posting them!
Happy Christmas!

Stoppage23 Dec 2024 6:36 a.m. PST

Not over-thinking, more imagineering!

I think the mannequins are on the wrong horses.

I don't believe their charges were what we call charges nowadays:

Working as a team – outer riders use lances to knock pikes out of way, allowing the centre lancers the opportunity to spring-forward and "jab" the enemy with their lances.

Mark J Wilson23 Dec 2024 10:14 a.m. PST

@ stoppage, in your dreams, how do outer lancers knock pikes out of the way without getting one in the face, or more effectively the horses face. To get close enough to reach with a lance you'd have to get through several ranks of pike.

Rough maths
16 ft pike 14 ft beyond man holding it
Second rank 3 feet behind [maximum], 11 ft spare
third rank 9 foot spare
fourth rank 6 foot
fifth rank 3 foot
Lance about 10 feet long so 6 feet beyond horses head = 3 ranks to get past then you're in competition with the fourth rank.
This doesn't account for that pesky sergeant with his halberd prowling under the pikes looking to a) hamstring your horse b) hook you out of the saddle

Stoppage23 Dec 2024 11:21 a.m. PST

@mjw. Maybe dreaming, but with imagineering ;)

Although it'll depend on the actual period and the defending infantry, I believe that – after doubling the files – there might only be three ranks of pikes defending against the horse. (Followed by ranks of pole-arms/halberds/boar-spears.)

Previous discussion from 2020:

TMP – Gendarmes / Knights vs. Pike in Medieval & Ren. War?

Olicana's post @ 23 Oct 2020 5:23 a.m. PST:

It's all about controlled charges and getting in among the pikes in a wedge formation, and using the inherent weakness of long massed pikes against themselves in order to break the formation.

Personal logo Dal Gavan Supporting Member of TMP23 Dec 2024 4:45 p.m. PST

The 1:1 vignettes at Leeds are very good. I'm sorry I only had half a day to view the museum (and I forgot to charge my camera battery before we got there, so only got 40 or so photos). <SNIP> <SNIP> <SNIP>.

Its funny how the lancer is leaning back,

What's he doing trying to take on a pike block in the first place? His horse has propped, so it worked out that it was not a good idea (see MJW's maths above). grin

CAPTAIN BEEFHEART24 Dec 2024 5:18 a.m. PST

Perhaps that was the posture that would support the store dummy without it tipping over. The curator's staff probably
had it's own agenda.

Personal logo Dal Gavan Supporting Member of TMP25 Dec 2024 4:29 p.m. PST

Perhaps that was the posture that would support the store dummy without it tipping over. The curator's staff probably
had it's own agenda.

Very good point. The vignette is designed to showcase the equipment used, not give a lesson in using the lance.

Gamesman626 Dec 2024 1:42 a.m. PST

The figures were made by the company illustrator Gerry Embleton, and as aside note the Perry twins were there setting them up, as thry know Gerry ans were in tbe same living history group,as we're all the others that were commissioned when tbe museum was being designed and Built. I know there were issues with how some of the figures came out, dad was creative and interpretation director, and wasn't always happy.

Personal logo Dal Gavan Supporting Member of TMP26 Dec 2024 2:43 a.m. PST

dad was creative and interpretation director, and wasn't always happy

Your Dad did a great job, from what I saw, mate. Yes, there's a few things people could nitpick, but it was one of the more impressive museums I've visited. Thanks for the background, too.

Gamesman626 Dec 2024 6:15 a.m. PST

👍🏻
Dad was in charge of the live interpretations riding etc. The goal was to bring the collection to life. You also see in a few of the films still being shown there.

Gerry was a little set in his ways with certain things and I think, due to the numbers of figures he had to produce across the whole museum had bitten off a bit too much.

The museum isn't what it was but it's still a good place, 29 years later.

Mark J Wilson28 Dec 2024 1:50 a.m. PST

@ stoppage, as observed by others Olicana is living in 'drill book' land. Solid close order infantry cannot be broken by cavalry alone because the horses aren't as stupid as their riders. This process covers the whole of military history and I'll add that from personal experience the slower the horse is going the less frightened the infantry are; that wild charge may not be technically effective but it is the most likely to provoke the infantry to bottle it and, very stupidly, run.

Stoppage29 Dec 2024 2:37 p.m. PST

@mjw.

"wild charges" belong to the age of rifles and machine guns.

A controlled charge at a fast trot/canter against canister/case shot.

A controlled charge at a slow trot maybe against smoothbore muskets

A controlled charge at a walk against foot.

A controlled "charge" launched from the levade posture for impaling an infanteer with your lance.

---

A formation of many, many, cavalry moving forward at any speed will make the ground shake and "tighten-the-sphincter" of anyone standing in the way.

---

Although I've pinned this idea on Pavia (1525 ce) it probably properly belongs in preceding centuries, though I have no doubt that the levade launching thing could be used against enemy horse (when you have a horse trained enough to do it)

Being able to accelerate quickly (and decelerate) in a small distance would be very useful – both for lance and for pistols/carbines/petronels.

The H Man30 Dec 2024 1:09 a.m. PST

Lean forward, catch the impact in the groin.

Lean back, it can go through the reigns easier to the horse.

I know which I'd prefer.

The horse doesn't get a say.

I just made that up, but it sounds right.

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