"Ancient alphabet discovered in Syria; predates hieroglyphics" Topic

Circa 2,400 BC, it is the oldest evidence of an alphabet in the world.:

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Thanks! I'll look into this, but I'm withholding comment until I find a better reporter. There's serious difference between AN alphabet, THE alphabet and "written communication" which eludes this one, and unless the British Museum is lying to me, the find is at least 500 years too recent to "predate Hieroglyphics."

Side issue. I don't know who was misleading the reporter, but "phonics" would be from the Greek "phonos"--sound or noise--and have nothing to do with the Phoenicians. "Phoenician" is the Greek word for those people, probably derived from one of their export crops--possibly a crimson dye. They tell me reporters are all university graduates these days. Any idea what--if anything--they study?

I'm sorry, Parzival. You're being helpful, and I'm savaging your source. But this galls me more than those video journalists who stand in front of an aircraft carrier and call it a "battleship." To be a decent reporter, you have to know something about what you're reporting on.

They tell me reporters are all university graduates these days. Any idea what--if anything--they study?

Journalism. It certainly isn't history, science or mathematics.

I remember the time a comet was going to smash into Jupiter. It was on CNN. They got the current Astronomy Media Superstar (sorry, I forget who; Carl Sagan?) there to gush appreciatively at the view we were getting.
The beautiful (of course!) CNN journalist asked him if this was due to Global Warming. 🤔
Our celebrity was taken aback, but too taken aback to ….

Oh. Add "Looking fantastic" to what they study.

Parzival,

I have no quibbles with your source. 🙂

But I believe this is the same story for the doubters.

Subject: Evidence of oldest known alphabetic writing unearthed in ancient Syrian city | Hub


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Subject: World's Oldest Alphabet Discovered | Scientific American


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🤔 was it the NY post that lied to us about the Hunter Biden Laptap, Russian collusion, Covid vaccine preventing Covid and keeping you from spreading it, masks working, pee tapes, the origin of the virus, The President NOT being in cognitive decline ……….. ???

NO WAIT! That was the NYT and the rest of the MSM. 😉

But I agree, most reporters today are agenda driven morons.

Thanks Parzival.

Robert, I think most of them study Journalism or some variation of Communication. I know a number of people in the industry and the veterans miss the old days. With the internet and 24/7 news cycles, clicks are more important than content.

Thank you, 35th! Much clearer. I'd still like another evidentiary link or so to be convinced the the find, but those articles make the story clear.

For those who won't read them, and seriously stripping down:
You've got three different basic forms of writing: character represents entire word, character represents a syllable--a "syllabary"--and character represents a sound. This last makes "learning to read and write" a skill and not a career, since it's a huge simplification. With a few week's training, ANYONE can make a record of ANYTHING.

Anything where a character represents a sound is AN alphabet. THE alphabet is the one that starts "A, B…" or initially, "alpha, beta…" Norse Runes are AN alphabet, but THE Futhark, since they begin "F, U, TH…" Arabic and Hangul (Korean) are others.

With me so far? To this point, the earliest use of any alphabet is from an Egyptian mining and refining site in the Sinai Peninsula, about 1,900 BC, and it MAY be the start of the Hebrew alphabet. (If you ask a group of archeologists how this connects to Phoenicia and our alphabet, pack a lunch. They'll be a bit.)

Now, our man from Johns Hopkins tells us he's found an alphabetic inscription from Mesopotamia, and 500 years earlier than the Sinai find. Important, but it doesn't move writing any further back, since Heiroglyphics go back to 3,000 BC or earlier.

What still isn't clear to me: (1) how does he know this is an alphabet? and (2) how does he know what sounds the characters represent? Is it related to the Sinai inscriptions? Is it related to Cuneiform? Clearly there was more to his presentation than filtered down to the popular press. If someone finds out, please let me know.

Oh. 35th. If that was aimed at me, I didn't say a different news source: I said a different reporter. This guy clearly didn't understand the subject well enough to report what was said to him intelligibly. It's a problem in lots of places including those you mention.

I agree Robert. I don't think hieroglyphics technically qualify as an "alphabet" system. After all, the term "alphabet" is the first two letters of Greek language (alpha and beta). I don't think there is any dispute that the Greeks inherited their system in some manner from the Phoenicians. But of course the Phoenicians did not write out their vowels so it is an incomplete system to be sure. In fact, it was the Greeks who developed the first true alphabetic system that included the writing of consonants and vowels. I don't seen any information in the article to suggest that we are dealing with an alphabet like system.

I treat all stories with a skeptical eye. But there's enough here to generate an interesting discussion, which is why I posted it.

"Oh. 35th. If that was aimed at me, I didn't say a different news source: I said a different reporter. This guy clearly didn't understand the subject well enough to report what was said to him intelligibly. It's a problem in lots of places including those you mention."

OPPs! I thought it was the source of the story. 🙂 I've been belittled many times on TMP because of a source of a story. Especially for Fox News.

Apologies.

But I was not trying to be mean, just pointing out all sources anymore are questionable.

This seems to be a valid and interesting story. There is so much in archeology we have been told is definitive, only to have to change it 10 or 50 years later. Still, always interesting.

As long as Graham Hancock isn't involved, I'll take it fairly seriously.

No problem, 35th. And as an old history major and intel analyst, I consider that all sources always were questionable, and always will be--though not always equally so. (I could name names, but we'd have to finish the conversation from adjacent cells in the Dawghouse.)

Marcus, the technical term I find for hierglyphics is "logosyllabic." Some characters represent words where others represent syllables. I don't know what you'd call a language where each character is a word. but there may not be such in real life. Sooner or later, you have to write down a name in some foreign language, so you have to have some way of representing sounds.

I have seen the numbers, but I don't have them in front of me. Basically, alphabets run 20-30 characters, syllabaries usually 50-100, and with logosyllabics, the sky's the limit. Hundreds at least, and archeologists still run into characters they just have to guess at. (The technical term is "derive meaning from context" I believe.)

Vowels. I run into this a little in Bible commentaries. No vowels for the Hebrew abjad--until the Masorites in the 10th Century AD, which is why we refer to the "Masoretic" text of the Old Testament. Same, as you note, with the Phoenicians. Not my field--I have trouble just communicating in English--but I get the feeling that you can mostly get by without vowels in Semitic languages. After all, the Hebrews managed for 2,000 years, and the Masoretic text deviates very little from the Septuagent--a translation into Greek of the consonant-only Hebrew text done in Hellenistic times. Wouldn't care to try it in German or English, though.

Generally, vowels are more slippery. Notice how often accents are vowel shifts, and how seldom consonants?

And now someone will post in Brooklynese.

Ah cant do Brooklynese, but Ah speak puhfect Suthe'n, y'all.
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That's "CAIN'T do Brooklynese" Parzival.

There is no such thing as hieroglyphics. It should be hieroglyphs. Hieroglyphic is an adjective, as in hieroglyphic writing. It's like saying purples instead of purple.

There is no such thing as hieroglyphics

Vowels. I run into this a little in Bible commentaries. No vowels for the Hebrew abjad--until the Masorites in the 10th Century AD, which is why we refer to the "Masoretic" text of the Old Testament. Same, as you note, with the Phoenicians. Not my field--I have trouble just communicating in English--but I get the feeling that you can mostly get by without vowels in Semitic languages.

That is not quite correct Robert. Hebrew writes out some of the vowels and so is a semi-vocalic language. They are called weak consonants and can be both a consonant or a vowel. We this combination with the Waw/Vav (U/V). This feature of the language distinguishes it from Phoenician and is a move towards a full vocalic alphabet of the Greeks.

There is no such thing as hieroglyphics

Just a short form for "hieroglyphic script".

Marcus, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But everything I've read on the subject says Hebrew has vowels NOW, but didn't in Biblical times, which is why you get this continual set of arguments that the Septuagint reading varies from the Masoretic because the Septuagint translators filled in different vowels to the same Hebrew consonantal text. If it's your understanding that there were vowels in the earliest texts of Genesis or Job, can you point me toward a source?

I love these " discussions"..
Keep it up! 😄

Robert, I studied Biblical Hebrew at the University of Toronto. The Masoretic pointing that we see in today's Hebrew Tanakh was a later addition to the original text to assist in the reading of it. Pointing is only part of the expression of vowels in Biblical Hebrew. Take a look at this web page for further discussion.

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Note these words "…. and prior to this the Hebrew language was written with only the twenty-two letters, but four of those letters, the aleph, vav, hey and yud, doubled as consonants and vowels."

As an aside, it is important to remember that in a oral society writing had a different function than in literate societies. The scholar Jacob Neusner noted that the Biblical text was originally a mnemonic cue, meant to assist oral memory. The ancient practice was to memorize Tanakh/Old Testament. Rabbis at the time of Jesus were expected to memorize the whole Biblical text. When someone turned to the written text for clarification they had already memorized it so that they could supply any needed vowels. Hebrew did however write out some of the vowels and part of learning Biblical Hebrew is to distinguish when certain letters function as a vowel or as a consonant. Hope this helps.

Excellent! Thank you very much, Marcus. I had also never heard the term "consonantal root system" though I was roughly familiar with the concept. (I've seen Dwarvish done that way, and eventually I'll remember where.)