"Horse furniture for 1st Westphalian Cuirassiers c.1809" Topic

OK, just so we're clear – this is for the regiment before it was issued cuirasses and adopted the dark blue uniform.

Any information gratefully received, on-line pictorial representations particularly welcome.

18 minutes – OK, what took you so long…..? (joke)

Wow, that's perfect – thank you VERY much!

@Baron von Wreckedoften II,

My apologies as it should have been sub 5 minutes, but the difficulty was trying to find images that were large enough for use & then issues with the "Wayback Machine" taking forever to load the second image contributed to the delay.

Do you have any indication as to which ranks/appointments used the different coloured sheepskin saddle covers? I'm hoping that almost everyone used the black one (simply because it looks cool with the dark pink facings!) and the white one might have been (senior?) officers only.

I believe it was black for trumpeters & white for everyone else.

However for officers (ignore the sheepskin saddle cover":
"The officer's shabraques were of the heavy cavalry pattern with squared front and rear corners and were of the regimental facing colour, crimson or orange until
1811. The edges of the shabraque and the double pistol holster covers were trimmed with silver lace, a single broad band piped facing colour for the Oberst, a double band with a gold welt between for the major, a double band for the
Schwadronchef. The junior officers had trim of narrow silver lace, a double band for the Rittmeister, a single band with silver piping at the outer edge for the Leutnant and a single band unpiped for the Unterleutnant. The rear corners of the shabraque were decorated with silver grenade motifs. On campaign the officers used a large square valise of regimental colour, dark blue after 1811 with silver trim
as for the shabraque."

"I believe it was black for trumpeters & white for everyone else."

I was really hoping for lots of black (possibly due to being the black sheep of my family). To quote the great Napoleonic expert, Dick Dastardly,

"Drat and triple drat!!!"

Thanks, PoE, that's very useful.

I'm planning to recreate this unit for a Sharp Practice game of the action around Olper in 1809, where a couple of squadrons skirmished with the Brunswick hussars during the opening phase of the battle.

I'm using the Perry French dragoon plastics box, with Carabinier heads from the French heavy cavalry plastics box, and the portmanteaux altered from square-ended to round with Greenstuff. (Also plumes added along with the occasional Greemstuff epaulette.)

Question: what long firearm, if any, did the 1st Cuirassiers carry – I can either use the musketoons from the dragoon box, or the (even) shorter carbines from the heavy cavalry box.

Thanks.

From Rawkins:

"The kürassiers were issued with heavy cavalry style pouches, smaller than the infantry pouch, of black leather with a squared lid decorated with a brass grenade badge, carried on a whitened leather shoulder belt with brass fittings worn over the right shoulder. From 1809 all companies were armed with the French dragoon pattern m.1777/1806 long carbine which could be fitted with a whitened leather sling for dismounded dutes and was carried on the saddle with the musket butt forward beneath the right knee. The 1. Kürassier-regiment may have been at least partially issued with the longer m.1790 French dragoon musket in 1809. A brace of pistols were carried on the saddle which were generally of either the model an IX or an XII French patterns manufactured in Italy."

Will see what my books may say on this….

So it's looking like the dragoon musketoon, then?

Impressive answer – many thanks!

I have now looked at my copies of "The Westphalian Army in the Napoleonic Wars 1807-1813" by Peter Bunde, Markus Gaertner & Thomas Hemmann, and "Westphalische Militar" by Markus Gartner & Edmund Wagner. There is no mention of either a carbine or a musket, just two pistols……..

George Nafziger's "The Armies of Westphalia and Cleves-Berg 1806-15" on page 31 has "The troopers were equipped with saber, pistol and a carbine." But he doesn't say from when….

Ah, that puts a different perspective on it. Given that young Jerome couldn't even impress big brother by providing them with cuirasses for, what – two years?, I suspect that – initially at least – long firearms might also have been a bit beyond his resources. I'll leave them without for now.

Thanks for all your time spent looking that up.

@Baron von Wreckedoften II,

On the question of cuirasses, "The Westphalian Army in the Napoleonic Wars 1807-1813" and "Westphalische Militar"say against 1st Regiment:

"When the regiment was created in 1808 it did not receive cuirasses. Around 1810 the first company was equipped with full cuirasses of polished steel. In the remaining companies only the officers were issued with cuirasses at this point. Only in 1812 were cuirasses provided for the whole regiment

It also seems that in the beginning, cuirasses of a different pattern , which consisted of a black frontal plate only, were issued.

For field dress, the cuirassiers who did not have cuirasses wore the greatcoat rolled up over the shoulder for protection from saber blows."

Rawkins says:

"The 1. KürassierRegiment did not receive the kürass until 1810 and these were only issued to the 1st Schwadron and are described as being black with red felt trim and consisted of a breast-plate only fastened at the rear with whitened leather crossed belts and a narrow waist strap. These were most likely to have been captured Austrian equipment and although some officers appear to have worn the black kürass until 1812 they do not appear to have been generally worn by the whole regiment. In 1811 both regiments appear to have been issued with a kürass and backplate of French manufacture identical to that worn by the French cuirassiers. The armour was made from polished steel and lined with red cloth with a white edging to show a cuff at the base, throat and arm apertures. The shoulder-straps were red leather and decorated with brass scales which fitted to a steel stud on the breast plate of the kürass. The breast and back plates were secured with a narrow black or brown leather belt at the waist. In reality the only time that the armour appears to have been worn in the field was as part of the IV Cavalry Corps in Russia in 1812. The reformed Kürassier regiments of 1813 do not appear to have been issued with new armour to replace the items lost during the 1812 campaign and were brigaded with the light cavalry and functioned as dragoons."

Nafziger merely says:

"In 1810, French style steel cuirasses with red and white trim were issued."

Thank you for that – most useful. My 1st Westphalian Cuirassiers are most definitely for 1809, as I plan to pit them against the original Brunswick Hussars at the battle of Olper, using Sharp Practice 2.

So no cuirass and no long firearm; I may forego the rolled greatcoat, as the Perry plastic French Dragoons I am using already have a rolled greatcoat on top of the portmanteau (although I shall be re-shaping that from square to round). However, it does appear that the entire regiment had full-on epaulettes, which may require some figures (not all) to undergo a wee bit of "Greenstuffing"…..