 The Virtual Armchair General  | 26 Oct 2024 2:02 p.m. PST |
Coming back to this thread only today, I wish to affirm that I have NO business association with Sergeants 3, have never been paid a dime by them for any purpose, nor do they owe me anything financially, if nothing more. I have not been appointed by any authority to do anything whatsoever regarding TSATF45 or any other Sergeants 3 property. While my services, such as they may be, are entirely at their disposal as I wish very much to help. That said, while I know what it is to have lost funds in a pair of ventures with Sergeants 3, money which went to cover various family disasters, I have long since accepted the
facts and do not hold anyone at fault. That said, while funds accepted for a promised product are rightly due refunds when it does not actually arrive, I'm frankly shocked by the attitudes expressed by a few on this thread. Perhaps their $40.00 USD USD loss is worth hiring lawyers to throttle that money out of a woman now living on the charity of friends and the hope of a (yet to be fulfilled) Go Fund Me. IF TSATF45 is finally published, those who can prove their pre-payments (as other records may no longer be accessible) should get their copies accordingly. Period. But whinging and judging someone they don't even know at the lowest moment of her life is frankly beyond petty. TVAG |
| greenknight4 | 03 Nov 2024 11:29 a.m. PST |
Done, and I posted the sharing link to all my wargame groups I belong to of Facebook. |
| DJCoaltrain | 16 Nov 2024 8:55 p.m. PST |
Lost my "Lifetime Subscription" to S&T 40+ years ago. Lost my 3 issue subscription to "Counter-Attack" in the mid 80s. I never bought another game sub again. I just lost my subscriptions to "America's Civil War" and "Guns of the Old West." Publishers have been cheating subscribers for decades. It's a risk subscriber's take. I also lost $80.00 USD on a Kickstarter that was never delivered. I never risk more than I can afford to lose. TSATF is one of my 5 favorite rules. If the next Edition ever sees the light of day, I will definitely buy a copy. However, I won't be putting money into a promise of a future delivery. I'm retired and I need to be very careful how I spend money. Especially with a new Federal Government on the horizon.  |
| RA Cunningham | 18 Nov 2024 9:11 p.m. PST |
" But whinging and judging someone they don't even know at the lowest moment of her life is frankly beyond petty." It's not petty.
What's happening is that someone has an open storefront, taking orders for future products and supposedly existing products, but using that money for personal expenses and not delivering. That's not only unethical, it's illegal. And the only reason you defend it is because you have a personal relationship with the person. It's nobody else's fault that this person has refused to take care of themselves. This is the second campaign to collect money for her benefit because she won't get a job. If it matters so much to you, then offer to let her stay at your home. You won't, because you know the end result of that. I do hope she finds a better situation and figures out that she needs to take care of herself instead of relying on the charity of others to house, feed and clothe her. |
| ferg981 | 19 Nov 2024 3:54 p.m. PST |
A sad story which once again calls into question the whole US "healthcare" system that leaves you and your family members with sad memories and insurmountable debts should you become unwell. J |
| The Virtual Armchair General | 02 Jan 2025 1:45 p.m. PST |
R.A Cunningham, I only came upon your remarks rather late in the game (as show by this posting date), but feel I must reply, though it will do neither of us any measurable good. I've met Christy Brom only twice in my life, the last time no more recently that HistoriCon 2005. In that regard, I have no skin in the game. But while you'd be at least technically correct that advertising products and accepting payment for no delivery would be "unethical and illegal," you should be well aware the Sergeants 3 Website operated for years with perfect legitimacy, and only collapsed with the death of its operator, Lori Brom. Christy was never part of "the business" and it fell to her only by chance. Alone, and with no one around her to help her make any decisions, she floundered--which always only makes any situation worse. There is no "defense" for all that's gone wrong since--there's only the fact that she failed at something she was incapable of handling. You seem very sure of your privilege to criticize the drowning man for not learning to swim. I wish I had such clarity when it comes to judging others so unworthy of any compassion. TVAG |
 Old Contemptible  | 03 Jan 2025 12:54 a.m. PST |
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| nnascati | 03 Jan 2025 1:21 p.m. PST |
I would assume at this point, that Christy has received what funds have been raised. I also hope that she has been able to connect with her relatives. |
| Old Contemptible | 05 Jan 2025 3:07 a.m. PST |
What is the current status of the rules? Have they been thoroughly playtested and finalized for publication, or are they still a work in progress? |
| nnascati | 05 Jan 2025 1:52 p.m. PST |
I think at this point all we who contributed are owed some closure. |
| RA Cunningham | 07 Jan 2025 9:00 a.m. PST |
TVAG, I'm aware of the history of TSATF and the Broms. I don't fault Cristy for not knowing what to do with the materials in the beginning. However, she had a choice to either learn it, sell it, shut it down or collect money for product she wasn't developing or delivering. And she chose the latter. I am not going to feel guilty for being critical of someone who 1) is collecting money for orders, not sending those orders and using the money on herself, 2) refuses to support herself and lives in expectation that others, including complete strangers, should work to provide for her needs, taking money for products and from multiple crowdfunding campaigns, because her father created a set of beloved wargaming rules. It's been two years since Lori left us and in that time Christy hasn't gotten a job? Are we all meant to work and spend our money supporting the children of game designers in perpetuity, to allow them to refuse to get jobs for themselves? Should I start saving to help support Rick Priestley's kids when he passes away? McDonalds is always hiring and they don't need an extensive resume.
Welfare exists.
Become a nun. |
| Old Contemptible | 07 Jan 2025 11:35 p.m. PST |
This a great set of rules which is being held hostage. She needs to sell the publication rights so all its fans can enjoy it. I doubt that Larry envisioned the rules fading to abject obscurity. |
| Al Amos | 20 Jan 2025 11:01 a.m. PST |
As I posted on a new thread I'll relate my experience here. I bought product on Dec 11, 2025. Nowhere in the website did it mention anything deaths, etc. The Sgts 3 should at least suspend selling anything at the with a simple explanation of what has happened. |
| RA Cunningham | 21 Jan 2025 9:33 a.m. PST |
Four months later, has Christy gotten the money that was collected? Has Christy found a stable living situation? |
| nnascati | 21 Jan 2025 1:01 p.m. PST |
RA Cunningham, JBaumel was supposed to reach out to Christy for an update, and report back here. |
| Marcus Brutus | 21 Jan 2025 2:55 p.m. PST |
Taking money from people and failing to deliver product is stealing in my books. How can that be excused? |
| RA Cunningham | 25 Feb 2025 2:57 p.m. PST |
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| The Silver Fox | 05 Mar 2025 12:56 a.m. PST |
I'm new to this thread. After reading what's going on, I sympathize with everything that Christy Brom is going through. Sometimes life hits hard and things fall apart fast. That seems to have happened to Christy on several fronts. That said, I agree with comments here that say that while we can be sympathetic and even accept that the 40th Anniversay Edition is dead in the water, she should communicate that to us so that we can close this chapter. I pre-ordered the 40th Ann. Edition in 2022 and received a communication to be patient. I also ordered about $100 USD of existing material in early 2023 and was then told that it would soon come, that they were working through some issues. It has now been three years since the pre-order for the 40th Ann. Edition and two years since my $100 USD order. I agree with those who have previously pointed out that it is unethical to keep accepting orders but not deliver. If the whole business has fallen apart, we get it. But we should be dealt with honestly and just told that it's over. Personally, I would very much like to see TSATF continue. But if anyone has influence or communication with Christy, I think that that person should lovingly urge her either to put the business to rest or pass the torch to someone else who can run with it. |
 John the OFM | 06 Mar 2025 9:15 a.m. PST |
Which will we see first? The 40th Anniversary of TSATF, or The Winds of Winter?
Sorry to be cynical, but I think "neither". |
 piper909 | 01 Apr 2025 7:57 p.m. PST |
Geez, this thread has become brutal. I post as a long-time fan of TS&TF rules (since the original edition and 1980 games in Lake Geneva!) I only want to say that many viewpoints expressed above are valid but also add that few of us are familiar enough with the situation, up close and personal, to pass judgment. I admire TVAG's engagement and awareness of the situation. I am in sympathy with Christy and the Brom family and fully respectful of their rights. I wish I had the opportunity to have corresponded with Lori about new editions and variants, I might have helped, but my house moves during much of the past years prevented me from reaching out and then she sadly passed. At the same time, I also understand RA Cunningham's valid comments but his attitude has become progressively more antagonistic and unsympathetic. I find this regrettable. "Get a job" is not a helpful suggestion and is probably ill-informed as to her actual circumstances. (You try "getting a job" as a senior who may not even have relevant job skills. Want to try to sustain a wargame publishing enterprise on a grocery store clerk's salary?) My ideal solution would be to cut Christy some slack and think of some donations as charity (who remembers that good old fashioned word?) while finding an "angel" wargamer type who has the wherewithal to buy the rights to the Brom game rules and see that they're reissued in a responsible manner. You'd think at least SOMEONE out there has some resources in this small way. Isn't there some video / computer game mogul who needs a tax dodge? |
| RA Cunningham | 11 Apr 2025 3:13 p.m. PST |
Hi, forget about sustaining a wargames publisher (which should be self-sustaining anyway). How about sustaining herself? If you think that's difficult on a grocery store salary, imagine how difficult it is on no salary whatsoever, which has been the situation for years, now. I would think that someone who has maintained a website for decades has some marketable skillset. Regardless, living with your hand out is no way to live, both from a quality perspective and from a moral perspective, expecting others to work on your behalf while you do nothing. And taking money for products you aren't selling is even worse. Running successive crowdfunding hasn't produced significant funds to live off of, and while the intention is likely honest, there's no proof any of the money has gone to her. The latest campaign is still open to collect funds. Did they forget about it? Anyone that does work for a living already pays taxes to help those in need. And give to charities. But if you think I am being uncharitable, give her a living stipend from your own money, or offer to care for her, or take out a loan to fund restarting the company. I'm sure there is a couch in your home, or a sleeping bag. It's easy enough to dismiss or try to shame others for their questions on what is happening or their pragmatic attitudes. But then you aren't stepping up to follow your own directives, are you? I'm a bad person for expecting an adult with no assets to face reality and get a job, but you are a good person based on what? What have you done to change her life that you think practical, real life solutions sound bad? If you found yourself in that same situation, wouldn't you get up and get to work? |
| RA Cunningham | 11 Apr 2025 3:14 p.m. PST |
Also, it's now April, and still no word on what is happening with her or with the donations. |
| robert piepenbrink | 17 Apr 2025 2:37 p.m. PST |
Give it a rest, RA. You've made your point. Posting once a month about it doesn't get us anywhere. |
| RA Cunningham | 18 Apr 2025 1:32 p.m. PST |
Not once a month, but maybe I should to keep reminding everyone that she's still homeless, that they are still collecting money for her and she's apparently not seeing any of it. |
| Stalkey and Co | 18 Apr 2025 6:22 p.m. PST |
Yes, there's something odd about this whole thing – if those who are "in the know" enlighten us, then I'm willing to consider the situation. I found the webpage for the gofundme, and emailed the contact, and have heard nothing. Presently, as a professional in the service industry, I can't endorse this request for help as there seems to be very little information and accountability. I would stay clear of it at this time. Open to changing my mind about this. |
| nnascati | 06 May 2025 12:01 p.m. PST |
I think it's time for us to receive some kind of an update on the situation. |
| coopman | 16 May 2025 7:25 a.m. PST |
I'm sure Christy never intended to be in this predicament. Life has sure been rough for her after Larry's & Lori's passing. I am way more concerned about Christy's well being than I am about getting my TSATF rules pre-order money back. Some of you should really be ashamed of yourselves. What if you had been taking pre-order money for a project that you were working on and then had a car wreck and became comatose? Does that now make you a thief? Of course not. It's called "unforeseen circumstances". This is comparable to what has happened to her. |
| Oliver Schmidt | 16 May 2025 7:52 a.m. PST |
@coopman: If Christy is in coma, nothing we can do. If she is not, a lot she can do. |
| coopman | 16 May 2025 8:23 a.m. PST |
Maybe she doesn't even have a car, a phone or internet access. |
| nnascati | 16 May 2025 1:22 p.m. PST |
The problem is that no one is updating us on the situation. |
| Marcus Brutus | 17 May 2025 11:24 a.m. PST |
My understanding coopman is that Sergeants3 kept taking preorders even when it was known by those in the know that it would be incapable of fulfilling them. If that is the case, and I stress the "if" part then that is deception and fraud or in my parlance stealing. The fact that someone is in significant need of financial resources does not mitigate an act of deception or stealing on their part. |
 deadhead | 18 May 2025 10:57 a.m. PST |
I always thought this was a slightly weird thread and not really a topic for TMP. Once it gets to be an accusation (I do allow the "if" of course) of a criminal offence (offense) is it not getting into dangerous territory? |
| RA Cunningham | 19 May 2025 8:21 a.m. PST |
Sergeants 3 is still open for business, selling more than just preorders. Who is fulfilling orders? The idea that this is akin to being in a coma is ridiculous. Let's ask other crazy questions like what if I was taking orders and someone cut off my arms, or what if I was taking orders and got caught in a nuclear blast? How about we stick to the problems at hand. Christy is homeless, someone has been collecting money (for six months, now?) to help her but it seems she hasn't gotten that money, she's taking orders and preorders for products and not using that to deliver, a whole lot of people are so concerned and critical of asking questions but have done nothing to help her. |
| Long Valley Gamer | 23 May 2025 12:29 p.m. PST |
I just went to the website and they are apparently still taking orders. When there is no ability to fill orders the right thing to do is post a notice of temporarily not taking orders at this time. Not everyone reads TMP and is aware of the situation. Wouldn't know how many orders are not being filled.
This is wrong and the folks who are close to her on the site should remind her of that fact. |
| ritteralb | 24 May 2025 3:58 a.m. PST |
Hi. I've bought a set of rules and some variants from sergeants3, never got any of it. But paypal refunded me. |
| The Silver Fox | 14 Jun 2025 3:04 a.m. PST |
I have over $100 USD in orders with Sergeants3. I had never tried PayPal refunds. That might be something worth trying. |
| RA Cunningham | 24 Jun 2025 9:30 a.m. PST |
9 months out and no information. |
| RA Cunningham | 24 Jun 2025 2:02 p.m. PST |
And 5 months since the original poster logged into the site. I find it hard to believe that none of the Jackson Gamers that still visit TMP are able to provide information on Christy's status. |
| nnascati | 25 Jun 2025 5:45 a.m. PST |
RA Cunningham, I fully agree. It has become quite a mystery. |
| piper909 | 25 Jun 2025 10:10 p.m. PST |
Agreed. These people in the area who are involved with all this need to step up, Sergeants 3, Jackson Gamers, anyone who has been working with any of the Broms or any TS&TF product sales. The rest of us here are only floundering. And anyone with outstanding unfulfilled orders ought to file a dispute and request refunds -- that might get some attention from whoever is holding the bag. I'm not casting aspersions or blame, but there's a right way to approach things like this and a sensible way forward, starting with clearing the decks and being upfront about the situation. There are remedies for these troubles but no solution can be determined as long as a dark shroud hangs over the facts. |
| RA Cunningham | 03 Jul 2025 6:35 p.m. PST |
What a sad state that the people who happily shared the friendship of the Broms when times were good have completely disappeared when their support was needed the most. They jumped to collect money that was never going to do much, instead of taking action. And now they've disappeared. How many of them will find the means to get themselves to Historicon, and make many purchases, but not one could get to NOLA to save a lifelong friend? Don't forget to post about the fun you had and all the TSATF related activities. |
| Richard 1956 | 04 Jul 2025 10:34 a.m. PST |
Pity the US doesn.t have a welfare state. |
| nnascati | 04 Jul 2025 11:00 a.m. PST |
I've asked the OP a couple times for an update. Have gotten no response. |
| Stalkey and Co | 04 Jul 2025 3:52 p.m. PST |
@ RA Cunningham You're just talking total nonsense. There's a right and wrong way to help people.  |
 Editor in Chief Bill   | 05 Jul 2025 5:47 p.m. PST |
What a sad state that the people who happily shared the friendship of the Broms when times were good have completely disappeared when their support was needed the most. What evidence do you have of this? It seems to me you are falsely judging people who have made great efforts to help, in a situation where help is quite difficult. |
| piper909 | 05 Jul 2025 10:15 p.m. PST |
When would TS&TF become public domain, if the trademark is not in use and the publication is out of print? |
 etotheipi | 06 Jul 2025 11:36 a.m. PST |
Depends on where it was published. link |
 KimRYoung | 06 Jul 2025 11:44 a.m. PST |
Piper, I could find no trademark for "The Sword and The Flame in the United States Patent and Trademark Office database (either alive or dead). This of course could only apply to the printed cover logo which was done by John Hagen and no registered trademark exists for that. While there is a "TM" in the logo on the cover, trademarks must be registered to be valid, unlike Copyrights which do no have to be registered. I also could not find a "registered" copyright", however there is a clear Copyright logo on the front cover of the rules. Copyright 1979 Yaquinto Publications, Inc and Copyright 1986 Greenfield Hobby Distributers, Inc. are on the two sets I have. Yaquinto has been long gone, and the rules were then printed by Greenfield, which is also no longer in business. I would assume that Larry held the copyright after that depending on the agreement(s) he had with the publishers. If the notice of copyright is clearly displayed it is valid for the life of the creator of the works, plus 70 years after death. Therefore, they will fall into public domain 70 years from Larry's passing at which point anyone can publish the rules as they are. It should be noted however that game mechanics cannot be copyrighted. Anyone can produce a similar game using similar game mechanics, if text, illustrations, and other original material are not copied. There have been several games that utilize Phil Barkers DBA game mechanics that have been produced over the years. Kim |
| etotheipi | 06 Jul 2025 3:43 p.m. PST |
It should be noted however that game mechanics cannot be copyrighted. Anyone can produce a similar game using similar game mechanics, if text, illustrations, and other original material are not copied. Kind of … PDF link But, yes patent is more appropriate for procedures. There have been several games that utilize Phil Barkers DBA game mechanics that have been produced over the years. The fact that someone does something doesn't make it right. Or legal. Mr. Barker may have been flattered at imitation, not cared about it, felt he lacked the resources to pursue action, or even that the juice wasn't worth the squeeze. The point is not to speak about him, but rather another complexity in the issue. If you do not pursue claims that you could have, that could establish a legally relevant pattern, and someone later (or the original people after time has passed) can claim and successfully defend based on "precedent". Would it? Could it? Did it? No idea. Have we said "call a lawyer" yet? |
| RA Cunningham | 06 Jul 2025 5:33 p.m. PST |
The evidence is apparent in the complete lack of information on what is happening 9 months later. It's good that people feel judged. They are all going to be enjoying a convention that costs a lot while their friend has fallen into a hole. If that rubs them the wrong way, good. Maybe they will decide to do something. Guaranteed that there will be toasts to Larry during Historicon dinners.
What will Cristie be eating those nights? |
