"Did Zelensky blow it with his trip to US?" Topic

Agree or disagree?

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For weeks now, we have been told repeatedly that Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenski had a "secret plan for victory" over Russia that he would unveil by the end of the month. That finally happened this week, with Zelensky launching a "charm tour" across a variety of stops, primarily in the United States, seeking to gain the full support of American leaders (and potential leaders) to achieve his nation's ambitious goals. But what he actually managed to achieve appeared to be more of a crash course in the finer details of divisive American politics while taking a sledgehammer-style approach to a delicate situation that one Ukrainian foreign policy analyst described as being "a big mistake." Zelensky wound up poking his nose into American party politics and making demands that even those most likely to support his requests edged away from carefully.

I don't think he blew it. Trump will pull the rug out from Ukraine aid if he wins and nothing Zelensky says will change that. The same goes for the Republican party. Democrats remain committed to Ukraine though I think everyone looks at the war as a stalemate at best. I doubt anyone bought the idea that Ukraine can win outright and retain all of its territory. It's just not a reality that anyone can sell so he's pretty much in the same situation he was in before his trip. Nobody thought Ukraine could resist as strongly as they have so this war will end with nobody getting what they want. Putin is humiliated and will insist on Ukraine ceding territory in the East to save face and Russia's terrible relationship with the West will stay that way.

I looked at the website you linked and it has a very strong right-wing bias. It's just saying what Trump supporters want to hear.

I looked at the website you linked and it has a very strong right-wing bias. It's just saying what Harris supporters don't want to hear.

Captain Sensible has it right, I think. We are headed for a deal regardless, and Zelensky came to keep himself on our radar. He has said that he does not think Trump knows how to end the war. But that's from his perspective. He has to hope the other candidate wins.

Whatever happens, much damage has been done to the Russian military.

"Whatever happens, much damage has been done to the Russian military." Isn't that what the West wanted anyway?

I remember when Obama came to power, everyone was so worried what he would do or not do. With the Iran deal exception, he followed the long standing US policies in the middle east.

I expect Trump to do the same with the Russian-Ukrainian war.
Remember the Republicans are known as the party of hawks.

Definite bias to the article…

I bet his visit had more to do with gathering intelligence, what Trump intends to do if he wins the election. Ukraine will be counting down the days to January 20th 2025 if Trump wins.

I think the title of the program "hot air" says it all. The individual has a hard right wing, pro trump bias and is telling his listeners what they want to hear. Plus, trump hates Ukraine and will do everything in his power to support Putin if he gets back into office.

As to a stalemate Russia has suffered over 600000 casualties in just under three years of its three day military specual operation. Imagine if we really supported them instead if the trickle of supplies.

"I doubt anyone bought the idea that Ukraine can win outright and retain all of its territory."

😂 Think not? Go back and read past TMP threads. Go out and watch some old MSM TV "news" channels if you can find the shows. There are still those out there that believe Russia will magically collapse.

Sadly in a war of attrition, Ukraine does not have the "people" to override the Russia advantage in population.

But i overrated the Russian military, I thought they were better than they were.

As far as biased news, there is not ONE unbiased news service out there any longer. They are all biased for one side or another. You may not like my saying that, but it is 100% true. If you believe otherwise, it's only because your preferred service agrees with most of what you want to believe.

Massachusetts. Got it.

"there is not ONE unbiased news service out there any longer."-35thOVI

Agreed, I just ignore anything where the author or host injects their feelings or opinion. This particular author was arrogant enough to claim to speak for the people with opposing view points…

Dragoon I'm not personally picking out anyone, it was meant as a general comment. 😉

I'm the first to admit, that most of my sources lean conservative. But I do read others to compare.

My comment was also it was bipartisan! The news I trust the most is the BBC and Reuters.

I like to say that I got tired of watching the lies on Fox, so I started watching the lies on CNN. 😄

It is so transparently funny to listen to people claim others bias-- while never willing to, Or completely unable to recognize their own.
I love switching back and forth between FOX, MSNBC, AND CNN --- it is like they live on different planet's along with different realities -- even quoting "FACTS and SATISTICS" thatare completely reversed???
Talk about spin for the masses.
Here is a list of realities, facts, and scientific proof -- now you just pick the one you like.

Regards
Russ Dunaway

Massachusetts. Fair and objective.

"It is so transparently funny to listen to people claim others bias-- while never willing to, Or completely unable to recognize their own."-Russ

Well here is your golden opportunity Russ to to show us your wit and what you found to be so funny?

Is there anything else that was said in this thread to support the rest of your statement?

Hot Air is indeed a conservative blog, So what? The question is whether Z messed up by identifying too closely with one candidate in what is plainly going to be a nailbiter election. There is a 50/50 chance that Z has to deal with Trump starting in January. It is interesting that he met with Trump, was it for two hours? Did he meet one-on-one with Harris at all?

Of course Z would not be the first foreign leader not to get how American politics works; we barley understand it ourselves!

Massachusetts, where it all began, except some say Lexington and Concord happened in New Hampshire.

Remember the Republicans are known as the party of hawks.

That was then, this is now. In case it escaped your notice, under Trump we saw NO NEW wars engaged in by the US for the first time in living memory. He crushed ISIS and ended that open sore, and negotiated the historic Abraham Accords MidEast peace deals, as well as ending some disputes in the Balkans. No new wars. Under Biden-Harris we have multiple new wars, and people want an end to endless wars.

It is always a poor idea for foreign leaders to pick a side in another countries political election process. It always has the possibility to go catastrophically wrong.
While I am as conservative as the next guy, I think the war in Israel and Ukraine is the same war with the same enemy: Russia, radical Islam, North Korea, and Red China on one side and two Western Nations on the other.

I don't recall Trump saying he would eliminate aid to Ukraine, only that he wants an accounting to stop corruption. I think the US and Ukrainian governments are corrupt, but that does not mean the people who live there deserve to be conquered by the Russians.

Also I think the US gives more aid than anyone else and Europe would do well to step up aid rather than keep expecting the US taxpayer to keep paying, no matter who wins the election.

Korea, Vietnam, and Afghanistan all suffered from the same problem, dribble in troops and aid for decades and never achieve a win. We are doing the same in Ukraine.

We give them 50 tanks when they need 2,000 to win. We tell them don't strike Moscow but let Moscow attack Kiev.

I hope Trump wins, and I think the US and Ukraine will likely be better off under him than under the present occupant of the White House or his VP.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek

Well, viewed through the lens of American domestic politics, if he meant to do it, it was a gamble; if he didn't mean to do it, it was an unforced error. Insofar as it sends a message to Russia, it is much more to his own benefit than ours.

It's possible he thinks the fate of Ukraine rides on the outcome of the election, and he genuinely meant to endorse the side he wants to win. The picture can be interpreted to give that impression, and given that both sides have an interest in presenting it to someone in that fashion, that's likely how it will be seen. If "his" side winds, he may be seen as having contributed in some way, and he may reap the benefits. If the other side winds, they're not likely to forget it. If he meant it just as a private gesture for those on hand to witness it, it would have been very easy to say, "no pictures please." People do that all the time, and if a picture gets out, the response is usually that it was private, which may mitigate the impact of disclosure very slightly. But I think it's safe to say he meant to do it.

By the Russians, of course, it will be read in the worst possible light, as a statement of a tacit but unwritten alliance. If the Dems win, the perception will be enhanced significantly to; if the Rs win, it will be reduced accordingly. Zelensky gambled that the value to him of this gesture offset the potential cost- to him, and to Ukraine.

The fact that there is a probable cost to the US in either case may or may not have entered his decision making calculus, but it's one reason why we have traditionally discouraged gestures like this from foreign leaders.

Yes, he met with both Biden and later Harris.

My point in saying its hard right was to understand it's bias right off. I do the exact same thing with books. Check sources and check foot notes as well as authors background. Its important to understand where the writer is coming from and of course their bias.

That said I agree with many you do need to look at a variety of sources. Which is why after reading or listening to Russian news organizations its shocking to me how often other domestic news repeated them verbatim.

You are thinking narrowly somehow. For a start – Putin has already won, and quite a long time ago. At least one of the main goals – the elimination of Western hegemony, has already been achieved. The unipolar world has been destroyed. Ukraine and its borders are secondary. Now there is a wide scope for political games and new configurations. I will not be surprised if in five years Russia and the US are again allies, or at least neutrals, based on the confrontation with China.

Caprum2, I beg to differ with your analysis. Here we are in almost the third year of Putin's three day special operation. His military has lost occupied land since its start. In addition Ukraine has now taken and holds Russian land. Casualties, for Russia are enormous. Over 653,000 personal, 8874 tanks lost, 18822 artillery systems lost. 369 aircraft and 328 helicopters lost. The Russian economy is stretched and fraying. No need to go into oil refineries destroyed and the now four major munitions centers destroyed. BTW where has the Black Sea fleet gone? I don't see NATO unraveling but staying together and all pledging more aid.

I do read both western and Russian sources. I do not see Putin winning, but I do see him desperate for a presidential election to swing his way.

I agree that it is important to know a source's bias. Every source has such, and the pretense to "objectivity" is generally a ploy, even a deliberate deception.

Doc +1

The bias is not always in what they say, but also in what is left out.

Case in point, how few MSM reported this.

Subject: Tens of thousands of illegal with sexual assault, murder convictions roaming US streets: ICE data

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Isis lives. Trump-Pence, Obama-Biden, Bush-Cheney, could not really kill them off. And they all had failures in the ME. Trump-Pence maybe the least, but it wasn't their specic actions that made much difference. Afghanistan continued, Syria, Taliban invite to Camp David aborted last minute, thousands of Taliban fighters let out of prison. Not as bad as Biden's evac. But saying there were no new wars is like saying the weather was pretty good for a while.

Another case in point. I just did a quick Google search, not 1 MSM media source reporting on Kerry or Lebowitz's words. I disregard Clinton, I expect this from her. The 1st amendment and the Supreme Court. Does this sound like a real threat to Democracy?

Subject: Citizen Free Press on X: "Fran Lebowitz tells Biden 'to dissolve the Supreme Court.' Wait for the ending. t.co/UJm1NvOqGs / X


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Ukraine was one of only three countries to openly support operations in Afghanistan at the war's beginning, along with the United States and the United Kingdom. They sent a contingent of 21 servicemen to participate in the NATO Resolute Support training and advisory mission. After the withdrawal of United States and other foreign troops from Afghanistan, the Ukrainian military evacuated Afghans alongside Ukrainian citizens from Afghanistan.

Didn't Trump's FIRST impeachment have something to do with … errr… ummm… Ukraine and Zelensky? 🤔
So, yeah.
No wonder Putin wants him to win.

Actually Putin has publicly said he supports Harris. The MSM tried to laugh it off as a joke. But honestly, why wouldn't he?

"Speaking at the Eastern Economic Forum in the Russian far-eastern city of Vladivostok on Sept. 5, Putin said he would "lend" Harris his support (archived):

As for my preferences [in the U.S. election], it is not up to us to decide. After all, the American people will have to make their own choice. As I have already said, we favoured Mr Biden, the current President, but they took him out of the race. That said, he advised his supporters to support Ms Harris. So, we will act accordingly and lend her our support.

He later added that the Democratic nominee has "a very contagious" laugh, whereas "no other President has ever imposed so many restrictions and sanctions against Russia" as Trump."

"Contagious laugh?" That's the kind of lie someone like him tells to demonstrate that everything they're saying is untrue. It suggests to me that his endorsement of Harris is his way of saying that he thinks she's an idiot, and he would prefer someone he could do business with.

It may also be an indication that Putin realizes that Trump is his best hope for a negotiated peace. He may well be at the point where he'd take a face-saving deal, if he could get one.

IMO, this is Putin BS.

The NATO Alliance imposed the harshest sanctions after the invasion, as far as I know, led by Biden in his better days. Putin can best hurt Harris by supporting Harris. He will stay away from Trump to help him win. His Helsinki buddy is his real pick, IMO. Why would he support Harris when he knows Trump wants to end the war, and Putin needs an out that looks like a win with some territorial gains?

In any case the real end game for him and Xi is for the US to self destruct so they keep stirring the pot.

There is nothing wrong with the Supreme Court that enforcing some ethical standards on a couple of guys won't fix.

I think that Putin is well aware that his endorsement of Harris is very unlikely to help her in any way. It's much more likely to hurt her, which is why he did it. You know, KGB background and all that. Menu would anyone take his endorsement at face value? 🙄

Obviously though, many of you would believe he would support Trump without question. 😂 seems some still buy the doctored Hillary Russian collusion scam.

I will say again, as I have over and over and you can tell me I'm wrong.

Under Obama, Putin invades and takes the Crimea. No muss no fuss.
Under Trump, 🦗 🦗 🦗
Under Biden/Harris, Putin invades the Ukraine.

Now if old Trump was his buddy and would let good old Putin do what he wants and "hates the Ukraine", why would evil diabolical Putin pass up the opportunity, under the evil Russian loving Donald, to completely take the Ukraine? I mean you are all saying Trump would have let him walk through. So does it make any logical sense, based on what you all are saying, to wait on Obama's successor to launch his invasion

I guess I'm just missing the Genius of it all. 🙂

I think what he saw under both Obama and Biden/Harris, is weakness.

"There is nothing wrong with the Supreme Court that enforcing some ethical standards on a couple of guys won't fix."

Gee, and I thought enforcing some actual constitutional knowledge on 3 ladies, was the answer. 😉

"I don't recall Trump saying he would eliminate aid to Ukraine, only that he wants an accounting to stop corruption."

I think Bunk has most of it right. I would add that he wants it not to be just given away. He also I think, believes this is more of Europes issue and we should not be the primary country of support, but in this I could be wrong. This is similar to what he was after with NATO not paying their share of NATO's expenses. He did get them to start paying too.

I think Zelensky knows the US and NATO won't leave Ukraine empty handed, in the open, etc. And will continue supporting it. It is too important to let Putin get away with this …

Plus, as opposed to during Vietnam and later A'stan, Ukraine's Military fights and kills large number of their enemies. And all we have to do is keep arming them.

The pro from dover, judging by the figures you cited, you are not reading Russian sources, but sources of the Russian opposition – that is, Ukrainian propaganda)))
Can you tell me where the international blockade of Russia is? Where is its "torn to pieces" economy? Do you not see the European economy being destroyed? Do you not see the creation of a new economic alternative to the Western project – BRICS? The world has changed – irreversibly.

Nine pound round, Russian troops are advancing. There is no crisis in Russia. If Putin agrees to end the war, it will only be on his own terms. Whoever wins the US elections, support for the war in Ukraine will end only when Zelensky's victory becomes impossible. This means the war will continue until Zelensky asks for peace.

Trump is being noncomittal with Zelensky because he doesn't want to run afoul of a US law that makes it illegal for a US citizen to conduct foreign diplomacy outside of official channels (though the "other side" *cough*Kerry*cough* has done so.) With a weaponized DOJ watching and waiting to pounce on any infraction, he has to be careful with his actions…

"With a weaponized DOJ watching and waiting to pounce on any infraction, he has to be careful with his actions…"

Zephyr1 +1

Putin's timing probably was affected by a number of things. Most US presidents win second terms so he thought Trump would be there to step in and be the deal making hero. Which he still may do. Nobel Peace Prize… I am not sure Trump has the diplomatic skills to know when he is being played, they know vanity is his weakness. But I could be wrong.

Trump's rating among world leaders would be interesting to learn more about. He may have gotten NATO to start paying, but it seems like European leaders were not impressed with him in general. It's hard to imagine Trump leading NATO, uniting the world against Putin. There will be a deal instead.

Be careful 35th! You are lucky there are hardly any female wargamers! Are you saying the Supreme Court ladies need to go on a training cruise with Harlan Crow? 😉

"Be careful 35th! You are lucky there are hardly any female wargamers! Are you saying the Supreme Court ladies need to go on a training cruise with Harlan Crow? "

Just saying they should read the constitution and some other founding documents, before making judgments. 😉

Cuprum2

"I will not be surprised if in five years Russia and the US are again allies, or at least neutrals, based on the confrontation with China."

Russia has far more to fear from China than the US does. At least we don't share a border with China and the Chinese leadership certainly has expansionist designs on Russia. After the end of the Cold War the US should have contented itself with a return to the Monroe Doctrine. The US and the world both would have been better off.

"Putin's timing probably was affected by a number of things. Most US presidents win second terms so he thought Trump would be there to step in and be the deal making hero. Which he still may do. Nobel Peace Prize… I am not sure Trump has the diplomatic skills to know when he is being played, they know vanity is his weakness. But I could be wrong."

Yes you could be. 😉

If that were true, why attack unchallenged under Obama? I also agree with Legion, Putin saw the Afghanistan fiasco of a rout, as a signal of US weakness.
I would also point out the current fiasco in the Middle East under Biden/Harris.

I might even point out Chinese and NK aggression and the abandonment of another US military airbase in Africa.

Lastly I would point out Iran, their support of Terrorists aggression, hacking of Trumps campaign, sending that information to the opposing party and media and their threats to assassinate Trump.

Have they hacked Harris? Threatened to assassinate either Harris or Biden?

They too know who they view as weak.

I could be wrong, but I don't think so. 😉

Cuprum2. If all I used were Russian sources you would be right. But as individuals I know in Russia say nobody believes anything that Russian news media says not even Russian broadcasters. Western independent sources that are monitoring the situation get numerous verifications before publishing and admit their numbers are very conservative and could be higher.

bottom line your three day special operation has been a miserable failure.

BTW, Didn't Putin tell his army to take Pokrovsk and liberate the Kursk region from the Ukrainian army by October 1?

Anyway, happy Defenders Day Ukraine.

Kevin C, as long as Russia and China are in confrontation with the West, there are no concerns for Russia. Russia fully ensures China's security from the North, Russia is always ready to provide China with the necessary resources and replenish its arsenals if necessary. China will pose a danger to Russia when it solves the problem of Taiwan and control over Southeast Asia.

The pro from dover, in Russia no one trusts Russian media, because they lie. But in Russia no one trusts Western media, because they lie no less))) But we get accurate information from our relatives and friends who themselves participate in military actions. Directly – without any media.

The three-day operation really failed miserably. As did the West's plans for the rapid collapse of Russia and the preservation of Western hegemony.

I don't know where you got the information about Putin's order to liberate the Kursk region and take Pokrovsk by October 1. At least I haven't seen anything about this in Russian sources. Probably the Ukrainian media lied to you))) And Putin practically doesn't interfere in the affairs of the army.
But nevertheless, Russian troops took Ugledar today and practically destroyed the 72nd brigade of the Ukrainian Armed Forces there. So your congratulations are accepted, albeit on a slightly different occasion.
Not a bad gift for Defender of Ukraine Day ;-)

hey wait a sec- am I repub from Massachusetts. Rebubs in Mass are sort of like a blue moon. Does not happen often. But memorable when you see one. :)

Corrective, ahh but you live in Florida now. In Massachusetts you would now qualify as an endangered species. 😉