"Just War theory." Topic

Huh? I was looking forward to a good discussion about an interesting concept which may, or may not be outdated in this contemporary, secular world.

My original post just got so messed up with duplicate posts, bad copying, etc. sorry about that. 🤷

Ahem.

Starting from here:
link

I actually took a college Theology class on this during Vietnam. It was … one sided to say the least.
Anyway, Wikipedia starts with a Pharaoh who justified his wars of expansion by saying "I am strong and powerful, and the Gods commanded me to!"
Hindu philosophy is much more nuanced, and pretty much in alignment with today's thought.
It gives a very interesting perspective on Chinese thought. Very nuanced.
The article has a section the Christian approach, which takes up rough 80% of the space.
It traces from St Augustine through Thomas Aquinas up to present day Christian thought.

Interestingly enough, there is no section on Muslim thought on a Just War. I am forced to believe that it pretty much aligns with Pharaonic thought. 🤔

I had a nice thought on this, but was so bummed out by technical glitches that I gave up.
Anyway, please carry on.

I use the Just War theory regularly, especially in debates over events as varied as Jackson's Indian policy, John Brown, and Hiroshima Dresden etc.

Iirc the criteria are:

Just cause -- which is innocence or defense of innocence

Right intention -- what will you do with the enemy once he is defeated?

Competent authority -- no private wars

Lesser evil (as understood by the competent authority)

probability of success (ditto)

last resort

MEANS that are proportional and that distinguish between combatants and non-combatants

My sense is that the criteria are valid and clear enough, but the application of them is very tricky in specific situations.

I remember, forty or so years ago, the Senate debate on the current war in the ME was on, televised, and I was teaching World politics at UTC that night. So we watched it together. The debate hinged on whether the US was at the point of last resort. The doves were arguing for one more attempt to make peace. The hawks reply was, okay, say we do that, and we still get war, and a year from now we are back here doing the same debate. You guys will STILL be calling for one more attempt to make peace. And so on, forever.

I even once had a young lady, a very bright pro-lifer, use the JW criteria to evaluate the morality of abortion.

Good discussion gentlemen and thanks for link John the OFM. It was interesting that it was Aristotle who originated the idea in the West and his most famous student was Alexander the Great.

I'd say Alex met the JW criteria. How many times does Persia get to invade before a counter-attack?

And lining up 10,000 Macedonia soldiers and marrying them to 10,000 Persian widows seems like a right intention.

I think like many things a "Just War" is in the eyes of the beholder(s). Or as is often said "one man's terrorists is another's freedom fighter." …

Frankly I think currently Israel is fighting a Just War as is Ukraine. But some will disagree …

However, having many Vietnam Vets when I was in ROTC as instructors. Then in my Infantry Plt in the 101, in the early '80s.

Before that listening to somethings my Father talked about with his friends. Many being WWII Vets as he was. He was an Infantry SGT in France. Plus, all history I had read, etc.

From all that, then even reinforced in training, etc. In a firefight, the Just War paradigm comes down to the survival of you and your comrades. It seemed the best way to do that is kill those that want to kill you and your comrades. I.e. kill them before they kill you … Regardless, if the war is considered "just" or not …

The war in Israel and in Ukraine are the same war with the same enemy. Russia, Iran, North Korea, and Communist China fighting the West.

"MEANS that are proportional"

I disagree with this one. It's how you get a perpetual war against a weaker adversary who won't give up. Like North Korea, Vietnam, or the Middle East. Sometimes you just have to squash them like a bug to avoid an eternal war.

In Vietnam we sent 3 million troops but never more than 400,000 at a time. How would it have been different if we sent 3 million all at once and told them they had to stay until they won the war?

Mike Bunkermeister Creek

Viet Nam was a winnable war. LBJ made LOTS of mistakes. Trying to fight another war, on Poverty, at the same time was one; he lost both.

I blame MacNamara for the majority of the mistakes. He treated draftees as spare parts to be used as … spare parts. This comes from his brilliant career at Ford Motors.
So, going by the Ford System (which in my career in manufacturing worked brilliantly…) he decided that there was a finite number of parts, excuse me, soldiers needed. And he replaced these soldiers yearly.

Watch "We Were Soldiers". A very finely trained unit went in, did the job, and came home as a unit. That's not how the MacNamara system worked.

Add in the " measured response" where the Government didn't really try all that hard to win. They just wanted to "show resolve". Kissinger was just as bad. Oh, wait. He won the Nobel Peace Prize. Never mind.

Yes, McNamara was a big part of the problem.

"MEANS that are proportional"

I think when the time comes overwhelming force causing the enemy massive losses. Destroy their assets and break their will to fight.

IIRC, that was similar what Grant said. And the longer the war lasts the more it costs in lives, material and $…

What we know in modern warfare and have learned wars of attrition of the past. Unless you are the Russias, they are fighting more like during WWI, than modern combined arms maneuver warfare.

By destroying enemy C3 and logistics support/LOC is how modern combat ops should be executed. Not attrition … No leaders, no command & control, no communications and no ammo, fuel, food, medical, etc., etc. Kind of reminds me what the IDF is currently doing in Gaza, Lebanon and even Iran.

Watch "We Were Soldiers". A very finely trained unit went in, did the job, and came home as a unit.

Yes very good movie and book. Parts could even be used in classes when teaching about Vietnam. If they still teach actual history in schools?

We are trying, Legion, to get back to that.

Yes, we seem to be. But is an uphill battle in the rain … A real knife fight … trench warfare.

To quote an old Pogo comic in the newspaper, "We have met the enemy … and they is us!" …

It will be won, or lost, state by state, district by district, classroom by classroom. It took a generation to get that bad and it may take that to recover, if we can.

Yes, but again, I don't think it will be easy.

How Ukraine Trains Combat Leaders

"One of the less publicized forms of NATO military aid for Ukraine was the establishment of a training course for Ukrainian officers based on previous military operations and the current ones in Ukraine. So far over 700 officers from the Ukrainian Territorial Defense Forces (TDF) have graduated from these courses. The TDF is a reserve force that is, and was, activated in wartime. This was the case when the Russians invaded in 2022.Within a month another 100,000 Ukrainians volunteers joined the TDF and some of these TFF troops were soon in combat. The primary job of the TDF is to provide local defense forces to deal with any unexpected emergency, especially one involving armed intruders. Most TDF units are on the or near the Russian border.

The NATO Officers Training School or OTS started in 2022 with Ukrainian officers sent to Britain for training. The Ukrainian military leadership was not convinced that the OTS would be useful, but as the first graduates returned to combat units and fought Russians, they reported that the OTS training was a big help. As a result of that the length of the OTS course gradually increased from six to twelve weeks.

One of the tools available to OTS students was the U.S. Army CALL (Center for Army Lessons Learned) database, which included information on the Ukraine War as well as all wars the United States was involved in since the 1960s…"

link

Armand

Sounds like a good concept. Maybe this is one of the reasons why Ukraine's forces have been so successful combating the Russians …