"Black troops in the ACW" Topic

Hello everyone,

In his emancipation proclamation of January 1, 1863, President Lincoln had opened the ranks of the Yankee army to freed black slaves.

On January 26, it was decided to enlist citizens of "African descent" for three years and to group them into separate corps under the command of white officers.

Already in the fall of 1862, the first black units had been formed in South Carolina and Louisiana, because let's not forget that Yankee bases still existed on the rebel coasts, such as Port Royal in South Carolina, Fernandina in Georgia, Pensacola, Jacksonville and St. Augustine in Florida.

In addition, significant portions of territory were conquered from the rebels by the Yankees during the ACW, notably Georgia for one half, Louisiana for one third and Arkansas for two thirds between 1862 and 1863.

Thus at the end of the ACW the confederation was cut into three separate pieces.

But I got sidetracked, so to get back to the black troops, they were amalgamated with the 300,000 volunteers raised between 1863 and 1865 who formed, I believe, 166 regiments, including 145 infantry.

Finding a satisfactory name for these black troops was not easy; in Louisiana, they opted for an "African Corps", but later they spoke of "United States Colored Troops".

Often poorly tolerated by their white comrades in arms and despised, it seems, by the high command, the black soldiers were ultimately little used by the Yankees.

Nevertheless, I read that 2,750 of them lost their lives fighting.

You will find my reasoning simplistic, but I have never understood why the black Yankee troops did not seem particularly more motivated to fight than the white troops?

Yet for some contemporaries, the courage and the drive of these "damned s" as some called them at the time,forced admiration, even if some claimed to explain their determination in combat by the fear of falling back or falling into slavery in case of capture.

In my humble opinion each black man, former slave or descendant of a slave or had in any case in general 10,000 insults to avenge and yet they seem to have never been legitimately hateful fanatics like slaves of ancient Rome in revolt.

Besides they should not have been in excess of them, I only found the famous 54th Massachusetts Volunteers, the 25th U.S. Army Corps, what others were there?

By as incredible as it may seem, the rebels had very few black troops due to racist feelings, but they had some!

The slaves, subjected to late conscription, did not participate in any operations.

The rebels had black troops and subjected the slaves to conscription?

It is unimaginable for me although I know that in antiquity in the Balkans there were slaves who fought militarily for their masters, that the Romans armed 6000 exclaves to fight Hannibal Barca – in exchange for their freedom – and that the Muslim armies of the Middle Ages also had many slave soldiers, but my three examples have nothing to do with men who were still slaves in the second half of the 19th century.

What could the rebels expect from black soldiers raised among their slaves?

Incomprehensible…

Battlefields – Black Confederates: Truth and Legend – link

Black units in the Union army were not different than white units. You had some regiments what were outstanding and elite, many were decent and capable regiments and some were poor. However, most white commanders thought they would make for bad troops and did not allow them to fight. This racism continued through the Spanish-American War, World War I and World War II. Even when if each of these wars black troop proved they could and did fight well.

The myth of black troops fighting for the South has been widely dismissed by professional historians. But it still appears at times because of the Lost Cause advocates.

-1 Bill…

It's amazing how much the author of that article, (Sam Smith), simply didn't see, research, know, or perhaps even care to try.
In the past I have given names of black confederate soldiers, including the names of the over dozen black confederate POW's buried in the mass grave at "Confederate Mound", at Crown Hill Cemetery.
The evidence has been out there for years. Yet some folks, (even a particular blowhard that's here on TMP), refuse it because it goes against what they have been told to believe.

Well I am stuck in my chair and unable to get to my reference books. So all I can give is a few well known examples of blacks in CSA or State service. I will try to get the books when I have a visitor. Oh well.

In an earlier post by Hi eee ya, I provided the example of the Nashville business man who funded a complete artillery battery and uniforms for the crew.

In Louisiana colored militia companies operated mainly to capture runaway slaves. When the war began colored and black militia were raised to defend New Orleans and other riverfront towns. Some provided artillery crews for naval guns.

In Alabama there are comments about slaves being sent to muster camps/ points as a replacement for a draftee.
There comments about blacks being used to conduct hard labor around barracks, camps, battery redoubts.

"What could the rebels expect from black soldiers raised among their slaves?

Incomprehensible…"

There were Jewish, or at least half Jewish, soldiers in Hitler's army, so anything is possible.

My understanding was that black Confederate soldiers were almost invariably free men. The only exceptions were an effort--far too late--to enlist slaves with the promise of freedom post-war. Better than a year after the Emancipation Proclamation and with the southern cause collapsing, that went nowhere.

On the Union side, you certainly have bigotry. But you also have a black NCO corps not fully literate, to say the least, and regiments almost exclusively officered by whites, which may have raised both trust and communication issues. (Picture a Massachusetts abolitionist captain trying to give verbal orders to a black South Carolinian sergeant. They could hardly be said to speak the same language.) And they were mostly raised late. It takes time to build an effective regiment. No surprise that they were disproportionately used as laborers, and despite some outstanding individual performances, didn't have the same percentage of combat deaths as white troops who served much longer.

There were likely a few black men that fought for the Confederacy, but they were few and far between. Certainly not the legions the Lost Cause advocates want to put forth. No serious professional historian thinks otherwise. Most who served were camp slaves, teamsters, cooks, etc. They played an important role, but they were not soldiers.
In the Union army, there weren't any worse than the white soldiers. Many fought just as bravely. However, many were used as garrison troops to free up white soldiers and units to fight at the front. But those that did actually fight served honorably.

@ Bill, Editor-in-Chief
And what is your personal opinion?

@ Grattan54
Apart from the ones I mentioned, what were the black units?

@ Murphy
Such a reaction is normal, it's like when you say there were Jews in Hitler's army.

@ TimePortal
The colored militia companies operated mainly to capture escaped slaves?

When the war began, colored and black militias were raised to defend New Orleans and other riverside towns and some provided artillery crews for naval guns?

@ Nick Stern
"What could the rebels expect from black soldiers raised among their slaves?

Yes, for me too it's Incomprehensible…"

There were Jewish soldiers, or at least half-Jewish, in Hitler's army, it's true so anything is possible.

@robert piepenbrink
There were free black men in the south?

@Cleburne1863
In the Union army, there were no worse than white soldiers?

"There were free black men in the south?"

Yes, of course. More than in the north. About a quarter of a million if I'm reading this correctly
link

That would be maybe 8% of the "negro" population. New Orleans alone had enough to raise two infantry regiments. There was very much a separate free colored society in the major southern cities, and free black men who were slave-owning planters and businessmen. Many--probably most--were of mixed race, which made no legal difference in much of the south, but a substantial social one.

If you want a look at this from the inside, I recommend Barbara Hambly's "Benjamin January" books starting with "A Free Man of Color." They're historical fiction, but Hambly is a trained historian and it shows.

Yes. The black regiments in the Army of the Potomac and Army of the James developed stellar combat records.
Once trained, I don't think they were any worse than the rest of the white soldiers in the army.

There were actually schools of instruction for white soldiers who wanted to be officers in black regiments. So in that regard many new black regiments had better trained officers than a great many new white regiments.

And many of the black regiments performed very well indeed. In a report I did in graduate school I researched a very interesting action that took place in November 1864 along the Petersburg lines. In an operation where Grant was trying to stretch out his lines to the west, a brigade of three black regiments was assigned to make a diversion on the eastern section of the lines. The regiments advanced against the entrenchments and actually penetrated the lines and captured two cannon (which they had to abandon when they fell back). At one point the brigade's right was threatened by mounted Confederate cavalry. The rightmost regiment formed square and deterred them from attacking! :)

This one, Scott?

link

No, I don't think so. I'll have to dig out my research and post more information.

"…as incredible as it may seem, the rebels had very few black troops due to racist feelings, but they had some!"

There were no Black soldiers in the Confederate Army. I am not saying that some slave picked up a musket and fired it in the general direction of Union Soldiers. I am not counting the ragtag slaves marching in Richmond just before the war ended.

There weren't any. None. Zero.

Old Contemptible, I'm sure there were some. Throughout the whole war. 100-200 scattered throughout the whole army? You can never say never. And there are some muster rolls. But they weren't legions of them. Not like the Lost Causers want. And yes, I know the Confederacy's official policy of no black soldiers. That doesn't mean there weren't the odd exception somewhere.

Hi eee ya, the history of black and colored, mixed race soldiers, goes back in New Orleans to before the American Revolution. The Spanish used many such companies and several were part of the Spanish forces attacking Baton Rouge, Mobile and Pensacola.
The French continued the policy when they took over. The Americans seems to have disbanded black companies but kept mixed race companies. Some fought for Jackson in the War of 1812.
The mixed race companies were mainly used to hunt escaped slaves until the war. Blacks were used for heavy labor in all States especially early in the war. The Union raised Colored regiments in Louisiana, once they captured New Orleans.

TimePortal none of that has to do with this. Every Confederate state eventually provided regiments to the Union. Most of them were former Slaves.

Cleburne1863,

Like I said there are probably some odd exceptions. There were plenty of Slaves supporting the war. They built fortifications and did various menial jobs. But there were no official regiments raised by the state or national government. As I said I am not counting the few ragtag slaves marching through Richmond at the very end of the war.

Slaves were valuable property and it wasn't going to be easy for plantation owners and slavers to send them off to battle. They were not going to give them firearms! That would go against everything the Confederacy stood for.

"In my opinion, the worst calamity that could befall us would be to gain our independence by the valor of our slaves, instead of our own… The day the army of Virginia allows a negro regiment to enter their lines as soldiers, they will be degraded, ruined, and disgraced. But if you put our negroes and white men into the army together, you must and will put them on an equality; they must be under the same code, the same pay, allowances, and clothing… Therefore, it is a surrender of the entire slavery question." -- Confederate Secretary of State Robert Toombs, March 1865

"If slaves will make good soldiers, our whole theory of slavery is wrong." – Howell Cobb, January 1865

"Without slavery, this government has no reason to exist" – Jefferson Davis

@robert piepenbrink
Were there free black men in the south and more than in the north?

And some free black men were planters and slave-owning businessmen?

Oh yeah but most were mixed race which made no legal difference in much of the south but actually changed everything.

The rebels had very few black troops but they still had some OR There were no black soldiers in the Confederate army?

You're not saying a slave picked up a musket and fired at the Union soldiers because that's impossible.

There were a lot of slaves who were supporting the war under duress then and obviously they weren't going to give them weapons because that would go against the whole ideology of the Confederacy.

@Cleburne1863
Other than the ones I mentioned what were these black units?

@ScottWashburn
Many new black regiments had better trained officers than many new white regiments because they had to be more motivated.

Which black regiments did very well and where because I am fixated on the 25th Corps, I think it would be fun to paint all my Yankee figures as black soldiers except the officers although that might be impossible because of the faces and especially the hair not to mention the corps insignia which is very difficult to paint on 'S' range caps.

It would be very figurative of the ACW to play blacks against whites, rather than blues against grays…

@79thPA
The XXV Corps is a unique Yankee army corps, because it is almost entirely composed of African-American troops, who until then belonged to the X and XVIII Corps.

On December 3, 1864, the two corps of the Army of the James were reorganized.

Its white units joined the XXIV Corps, while the black units formed the XXV Corps, under the command of Major General Godfrey Weitzel.

The new XXV Corps served without particular distinction during the last days of the Petersburg campaign; its main notable action was being the first command to occupy Richmond, on April 3.

In May 1865, it was sent to Texas to serve as an "army of occupation" against the French presence of Napoleon III in Mexico.

The XXV Corps was disbanded in January 1866.

@Old Contemptible
Yes there must have been some strange exceptions.

Study the USCT in the Army of the Potomac and the Army of the James. The 9th, 10th, and 18th Corps.

hi EEE ya, why are you asking me questions I already answered?

Yes, the Root article, based on the 1860 census, says 35,000 more free blacks in the south than in the north, which sounds about right. You can dig through census data if you like. Some were wealthy and even slave-owners themselves, though in some cases the "slaves" were members of their own family difficult to manumit for legal reasons. Being of mixed race helped, but was not decisive. There were plenty of mixed-race slaves.

The next three points seem to be addressed to OC.

Ah! Viable distinction between "the rebels" and "the Confederate Army." The Confederate Army, by law and regulation, was not to have black troops. An exception was made, as I recall, for drummers. We can all question how closely law and regulation were observed in individual cases--especially "far from the flagpole" as it's usually phrased in the US Army.

(Under McClellan, the Army of the Potomac was also not supposed to contain black soldiers, but after some trouble with the Iron Brigade, any soldier in a Wisconsin regiment was regarded as officially white regardless of skin color.)

On the other hand, the state of Louisiana raised two black regiments with black officers which were certainly part of the rebellion and served a state in rebellion, but they were not accepted for Confederate service.

As noted above, there were certainly black teamsters, cooks, and engineering detachments--not legally soldiers in 1861-65, but armies don't march far without them. There's a letter from Frederick Douglass to Abraham Lincoln pointing out all the ways the Confederates were using black manpower--including, he says, as combatants--as part of Douglass' effort to persuade Lincoln to raise black regiments for the Union.

As for slaves shooting at Union soldiers, does anyone else remember that bit in Faulkner--I think in "The Undefeated"--in which two boys on the plantation both about 10 years old, one white and one black--one to fire and one to serve as a musket rest--take out an old musket and fire one shot at the "Yankees?" Now the Union major is obliged by his orders to burn any property from which someone fires at his troops, and much of the story concerns his efforts to find a way not to do this. Faulkner was born in 1897. He might easily have heard such a story from a participant.

I think this is another ACW topic that has been beaten to death. The information is out there for anyone to go find. I live in Vicksburg MS, the old courthouse museum has alot of info on this and other topics about the ACW…….if you can't find answers anywhere else, go there and you can find it:)
Any opinion I could add has already been added:) Happy gaming.

@Cleburne1863
Study the USCT?

What is this abbreviation?

@robert piepenbrink
For me, mixed-race people are not black so they should not be counted that way?

@gamer1
In that case, the forums are useless…

And the pleasure of being able to read Monsieur Robert Piepenbrinck, what do you do with it?

Use Google. Its like you want to be spoon fed every bit of information. Its literally every result I got.

USCT

United States Colored Troops

🙂

No, the forums are not useless, I never suggested they were, just certain topics have been covered so much that nothing new comes out of it. I get a lot of good help/info from other knowledgeable folks on here concerning the "lesser talked about" details of the war. Another dead horse… was the war fought over states rights or to keep slaves….been there, a lot.
Was the CSA command system in the ANV of having three massive corps more or less efficient than the Unions system of smaller but more uniformed corps or did both have advantages and disadvantages……that topic, not so much, for an example:):) Happy gaming.

hi EEE ya, this is historical wargaming. What you think today does not matter. What matters is what people thought at the time and place you're gaming. And in 1863 in the United States, anyone of visibly African descent was officially barred from the Confederate Army, and was (outside of Wisconsin) headed for the USCT in the Union Army. There was no legal or regulatory recognition of an intermediate condition.

I hit the "Submit" button in haste. I'm sorry. I've done that before. But consider. I do not recognize hereditary nobility in any way an 18th Century nobleman would understand. But when I study the 18th Century, I must pay attention to what, by law and custom they were and were not permitted to do, what positions were understood to be theirs by right--not as I believe things should be, but as the people living at that time and that place understood them. And I must consider who contemporaries did and did not understand to be noblemen, not invent my own definition.

I could make a speech to put Adams and Jefferson to shame on the equality of man, but it would not in the least help my understanding of 18th Century armies. And in the United States of 1860, mixed race were literally "not counted that way"--not only no legal provision, no recognition in the census. What we say about numbers is a mix of guesswork and individual observation, though I suspect modern DNA analysis could be applied to the problem.

Old Contemptible said:

"There were no Black soldiers in the Confederate Army. I am not saying that some slave picked up a musket and fired it in the general direction of Union Soldiers. I am not counting the ragtag slaves marching in Richmond just before the war ended.

There weren't any. None. Zero."

Sigh…

Holt Collier, Bill Yopp, Amos Rucker, Louis Napoleon Winbush, Caleb Glover, Richard "Dick" Poplar, Aaron Perry, etc.
Along with the over dozen Black Confederate POW's buried in the mass grave at Confederate Mound in Indianapolis, IN.

Historical records show this statement to be false, and the fact that OC makes it, makes me wonder if he also believes that the moon landings were faked….

Cognitive Dissonance does exist….

Sigh…

@Cleburne1863
Use Google?

Now on the net for historical questions, I only want to be "fed" by TMP and all my books!

@35thOVI
Thanks

@gamer1
For me now for my peace of mind, it's a single brand of figurines (guess which one?), a single forum where you can ask questions to real experts (guess which one?) and all my books and that's more than enough for me…

@robert piepenbrink
For me the game is not for fun or for the game itself, it's for historical passion but it's not a role-playing game either because I try to "decontextualize" "deinstrumentalize", because the "values" we have today would have made us look like fools in any era of the past.

@Murphy
Were Holt Collier, Bill Yopp, Amos Rucker, Louis Napoleon Winbush, Caleb Glover, Richard "Dick" Poplar, Aaron Perry, etc. black or métis?

During the Civil War, it was not legal for African Americans to enlist in the Confederate Army. The Confederacy, committed to the institution of slavery, did not allow Black men to serve as soldiers. However, towards the very end of the war, in March 1865, the Confederate Congress passed a law that permitted the enlistment of Black soldiers. This decision was made out of desperation as the Confederacy faced severe manpower shortages.

Even then, the law was highly controversial, and very few Black men enlisted or were conscripted. The notion of arming Black men, many of whom were enslaved, was deeply at odds with the Confederacy's foundational principles of preserving slavery. The idea was debated within the Confederate leadership, but ultimately, this policy came too late to have any significant impact on the outcome of the war.

The Virginia legislature passed a law in February 1862 authorizing the impressment of free black labor. This law required local courts to register every free black male between the ages of 18 and 50 for manual labor. This is not the same as joining the army to fight. Some of them may have considered themselves as soldiers. They may have been added to the regimental roles. But legally they were there only for manual labor.

Many officers took one or more slaves with them to war. They cooked, washed clothes, etc. Some became part of camp life and often considered a member of the unit and may have fired a musket in anger but that does not make them a soldier.

There is a lot of "lost cause" propaganda surrounding all these men. The "Lost Cause" machine scoured the historical record and latched upon any African American who was used as an army servant and/or labor using them to further the lost cause myth.

Only one of the following men was captured during the war and all survived the war. They were not buried in a mass grave in Indiana.

"Holt Collier (c. 1848 – August 1, 1936) With the outbreak of the American Civil War, Collier's master Howell Hinds left for the war, bringing Collier along to serve as a camp slave. After the war, Collier became a notable game hunter.

Bill Yopp (1846 – 1936 ) was the Black Servant to Captain Thomas Yopp. When his owner joined the 14th Georgia his servant went with him. Bill Yopp is buried at Marietta, Cobb County, Georgia. In some places, it is said Yopp "joined" the 14th along with his owner. "Joined" could mean he joined the group but not necessarily be enlisted. It was illegal for him to enlist as a soldier.

Amos Rucker (1817-1905) This is another slave servant who went to war with his owner. Rucker may have picked up a musket and shot at some Yankees. He remained with his owner's unit until the end of the war.

Caleb Glover (1827 – 1920) He was the manservant of Col. Olin Dantzler, who suffered a fatal battle wound on June 2, 1864, in Bermuda Hundred, Virginia. Glover returned Dantzler's body to St. Matthews, SC for burial.

Louis Napoleon Nelson (1847–1934) was an enslaved cook and body servant during the American Civil War. In 1862, Louis was a 14-year-old illiterate slave on James and Helen C. Oldham's plantation in Lauderdale County, Tennessee. James and Helen had 3 sons, E.R., Sidney, and James.

E.R. and Sidney enlisted in Company M, Tennessee 7th Cavalry in April 1862. At 14 years old, Louis' owner sent him to serve as a personal servant for his sons. Louis served as a cook for company M. There is no evidence to show he served as a soldier.

Richard Poplar ( died on May 25, 1886) was a free black man who was a cook in the 12th Virginia Infantry Regiment of Mahone's Brigade. According to records, Richard Poplar was drafted on July 1, 1862, as a laborer. Poplar was taken prisoner in 1863 or 1864 and was held for more than a year in the Point Lookout prison camp, Maryland.

Old Contemptible thumbs up for dispelling all those individual names as slaves and camp servants and not soldiers.

+1 OC,

How I wish the Lost Cause would just die already. Facts, evidence, primary sources means nothing to it's supporters.

Interesting. I grabbed one name at random from the list above. This article had photos accompanying the article, including Caleb and his gravestone. Sounds like it was unsure if Calab was still a slave at the time he went to war. Also sounds like he was very close to Dantzler and the family, even after the war.

"Caleb Glover & Colonel Olin M. Dantzler C.S.A. -- United Confederate Veterans

Caleb Glover wearing the Southern Cross of Honor,
awarded to him by the Paul McMichael Chapter of
the United Daughters of the Confederacy (UDC).
Picture courtesy of the SC Dept. of Archives.

Mr. Caleb Glover was born into slavery sometime around 1827 in St. Matthews, South Carolina to the Dantzler family of Calhoun County. He was both the slave and the life-long friend of the Dantzler family's oldest son, Olin Miller Dantzler, born on January 14, 1825.

As the two boys grew up together Dantzler secretly taught Caleb how to read and write (something that was against the law at the time in South Carolina).

To those in the Dantzler family and community, he was known as "Uncle Caleb". Those who knew Caleb described him as truthful, reliable, and one who never used foul language. His given last name Glover would later be taken from the surname of Olan Dantzler's wife, Caroline Anne Glover.

Olan Dantzler served as a South Carolina representative prior to the American Civil War (1861-1865) and reluctantly spoke out against secession until December 20, 1860 when the State formally seceded from the Union.

When the War Between the States broke out in 1861, Dantzler volunteered and was made Lieutenant Colonel of the 20th South Carolina Infantry on January 11, 1862 when the regiment was organized in Orangeburg, South Carolina.

Some conflicting accounts exist as to Caleb's legal status at the time with some suggesting he was still a slave, and others suggesting he was a free man of color and voluntarily accompanied Olan to war.

One of those accounts has Olan formally manumitting (freeing) Caleb and giving him a choice to go with him, or stay with the family; to which the older man, never one to leave his childhood friend and former master's side, choose to come along as Olan's "manservant" (body servant).

The regiment was assigned to the 2nd Military District of South Carolina, Department of South Carolina, Georgia and Florida. On March 4, 1862 the 20th South Carolina Infantry was stationed on James Island near Charleston, South Carolina near Secessionville.

Caleb and Olan and the 20th South Carolina would see their first action on April 7, 1862 when four companies of the regiment withstood bombardment from Union ironclads on Sullivan's Island and while manning the siege guns on Battery Marshall.

Between July and August of 1863, the 20th South Carolina would suffer 33 casualties (9 killed, 24 wounded) while serving on picket duty on Morris Island, South Carolina.

When returning by steamer from Morris Island on August 30th the nearby Confederate batteries misidentified their boat as a Yankee ironclad and the regiment briefly came under fire, resulting in 16 of their number either killed outright, or drowned in Charleston harbor -- ironically losing men to "friendly fire" than to enemy action.

The 20th South Carolina was again stationed at Battery Marshall on Sullivan's Island in Charleston harbor in early 1864 when the Confederate submarine H.L. Hunley was stationed and being readied for its fateful mission. While there, Caleb Glover -- along with other servants -- probably helped prepare meals for the rest of the garrison, including the Hunley crewmen.

According to history, it was Colonel Dantzler, with Caleb likely by his side, that spotted the "blue light signal" signaling that the Hunley had completed its mission on the night of February 17, 1864 sinking the Union ship USS Housatonic -- the first submarine to successfully destroy an enemy vessel in naval history.

The Hunley never returned to port and sank in the harbor.

Dantzler's report to his commanding officer, Confederate General P.G.T. Beauregard, reads as follows:

HEADQUARTERS BATTERY MARSHALL, Sullivan's Island, February 19, 1864.
"I have the honor to report that the torpedo boat stationed at this post went out on the night of the 17th instant (Wednesday) and has not yet returned. The signals agreed upon to be given in case the boat wished a light to be exposed at this post as a guide for its return were observed and answered…"
O. M. DANTZLER

Colonel Olin Miller Dantzler,
22nd South Carolina Infantry Regiment, CSA.
Image courtesy of Find A Grave.

At the end of April of 1864, Olin Dantzler was promoted to Colonel and reassigned to command the 22nd Regiment South Carolina Infantry, which was stationed near Fort Moultrie, also on Sullivan's Island. Caleb accompanied him as well.

The regiment was then sent to Northern Virginia and took part in the Bermuda Hundred Campaign in May of 1864 near the Confederate capital at Richmond, Virginia.

On June 2, 1864, General Beauregard sent troops towards Union positions to discover their strength. Colonel Dantzler, with Caleb at his side, led the 22nd South Carolina Infantry Regiment in an attempt to capture Fort Dutton.

As the Confederates emerged from a ravine within 150 yards of the fort, cannons of the 1st Connecticut Heavy Artillery Regiment fired canister shot, killing 16 of the Southerners. Colonel Olin Danzler was mortally wounded as a piece of shrapnel hit him in the chest. He died on the battlefield in the arms of his friend, Caleb.

Caleb Glover recovered Colonel Danzler's body and returned with it, and the survivors of the assault, to Confederate lines. On June 13, 1864, General Beauregard issued General Orders No. 12 naming a Confederate fort near the James River Battery Dantzler in the colonel's honor.

Caleb also recovered the body of Colonel Laurence M. Keitt, commander of the 20th South Carolina Volunteer Infantry Regiment who was also from St. Matthews.

The three men: Glover, Dantzler and Keitt grew up near each other in South Carolina. Dantzler and Keitt were political rivals with Keitt being a known Fire-Eater who supported secession. Prior to the war, their political disagreements even led to a duel in which Keitt was wounded.

Ironically, both men would die on the same day within miles of each other in Virginia on June 2, 1864, (Keitt at Cold Harbor and Dantzler in Chesterfield). Kiett was mortally wounded during his first (and only) field command while leading his infantry on a horse in a charge against Philip Sheridan's dismounted cavalry near Beulah Church when he was shot in the liver, or lung, and collapsed on the field.

Caleb recovered Colonel Keitt's body at night under the cover of darkness, barely avoiding Yankee pickets.

With his part in the war seemingly over with, Caleb Glover borrowed a wagon and took the bodies of his childhood friend, Colonel Dantzler and Colonel Keitt home to St. Matthews, South Carolina and remained there to comfort Dantzler's family until the end of the war in April of 1865.

Colonel Olan M. Dantzler is buried in a family plot at Tabernacle Cemetery in St. Matthews next to his parents and his wife, who would die later the same year on October 17th.

After the war, Judge Charles Glover Dantzler (1854-1919), the eldest of Col. Dantzler's five sons, took care of the elder Glover for the remainder of his life.

Caleb Glover was recognized by those who served with him as a Confederate Veteran and awarded the Southern Cross of Honor medal for that service from the Paul McMicheal Chapter, United Daughters of the Confederacy for his service -- a medal Glover wore with pride to reunions of the United Confederate Veterans until his death on March 25, 1920 at age 93.

Caleb Glover is buried at the Bethel AME Church Cemetery in St. Matthews, South Carolina. His gravestone was restored and is currently maintained by the Colonel Olin M. Dantzler Camp #73 Sons of Confederate Veterans."

Actually it's really interesting what you find when you research out there a little.
How the individual is portrayed, depends on which side of the issue you're grinding your ax on.

In Louis's case. He was a slave at the time and I believe he was told to accompany his owners. Did he lift a rifle and fight? Who will ever know. His family believes he did. He seemed proud of his service.

So did blacks serve in the Confederate army? Sure. As recruits? I have not seen it. With their owners or as free men with their previous owners? Obviously. 2 examples here. How many fought? No idea, but probably not a tremendous amount, or it would have been noted by Union troops fighting them. I'm sure a small percentage fought and were proud of it. Others served in other capacities and were proud of it. Others were forced and probably hated every bit of it.

I don't have a ax to grind either way.

Louis Napoleon Nelson

Subject: His grandfather was a slave. Now he's a vocal champion for Confederate monuments. – The Washington Post


link

+1 Gamertom

OC and others…what you seem to ignore is the fact that there are accounts of armed blacks marching with Confederate troops, fighting Union troops, and even Frederick Douglass said that "there are black troops with muskets in hand and bullets in their pockets ready to shoot Union soldiers".

What you also fail to understand is that there are (as I said), over a dozen black CS POW's buried at Crown Hill.
Now, being a prisoner of war, means that you are viewed as an enemy combatant. I know that one at least one of these men wasn't a servant, but was a courier. All they had to do to leave and be "free" was to swear the oath. But they didn't, and they died at Camp Morrison.

Oh and as for another that didn't exist:
Anthony T. Welters
Private, Company B, 3rd Florida Infantry Regiment, Confederate States Army

Anthony enlisted as a Fifer in Captain John L. Phillip's Militia Company before the War Between The States. When the Company was mustered into Confederate service, Anthony apparently did not formally reenlist but stayed with the Company throughout the war. He surrendered with Company B on April 26, 1865 in North Carolina.

I am in no way a "lost causer". I am however someone that understands that when someone says "They didn't exist", that they are simply confirming their own ignorance. I've also heard the same claim about Hispanics serving the Confederacy.

And I agree with some others; this is a tired, dead horse that for some people, no amount of historical reference, or information will get them to possibly open their mind of to change.

The cognitive dissonance is strong in some people.

Have a good day.

@Old Contemptible
Has the Confederate Congress adopted a law which allowed the enrollment of black soldiers?

Were they believing in the Pére Noęl?

Very few black men have enlisted, it's weird.LOL.

What did black men have noted the right to be armed?

Indeed if this policy has arrived before it could have had a significant impact on the outcome of the war which would have ended well before, because they might have turned against the rebels?

You wrote that some blacks "may have fired a musket in anger"…

On their "owner"?

Not an entrusted they took the opportunity to join the Yankees?

@Cleburne1863
The rebels were not cracked enough to raise and arm black masses …

@Grattan54
Does she still have supporters in the south?

@35thovi
Bravo!

@ Murphy
If there were armed blacks walking with the Confederate troops, was it still within the framework of white regiment?

Have they never had their own units as in the Yankee army?

If in my entourage I said that blacks fought for confederation, would laugh at me.

Good day to you too.

If you mean the Lost Cause, oh yes, it has many supporters.
Die hard supporters that can not be moved even when everything we known about the war goes against them.

hi EEE ya:

"@ Murphy
If there were armed blacks walking with the Confederate troops, was it still within the framework of white regiment?

Have they never had their own units as in the Yankee army?

If in my entourage I said that blacks fought for confederation, would laugh at me.

Good day to you too."

I'm going to answer the best way I can, and I know that no matter what I say there will be folks that simply will say "Nuh uh!". So here we go.

1:Q: "If there were armed blacks walking with the Confederate troops, was it still within the framework of white regiment?"

A: Tje true amswer is "Nobody really knows, but probably not." As it was stated. The CS didn't look at having blacks in ranks until the war was practically over. However what happened in the halls of Confederate Congress in Richmond vs what happened in the woods and fields of Northern Virgina, the Shenandoah Valley, Georgia, Texas, Missouri, or The Carolinas, were a different thing altogether. We do have written reports of eyewitnesses stating that there were armed and uniformed blacks marching with the CS troops in Maryland during the Sharpsburg campaign. My mindset is if there were any blacks in ranks, it wasn't reported to "higher ups", due to them probably being removed. The last thing the cotton planting elitists wanted was armed blacks. That whole Nat Turner thing was more than a bit unsettling.

2: Q: "Have they never had their own units as in the Yankee army?"
A: Not until the end of the war were black units recruited. By then it was too late.

3: Q: "If in my entourage I said that blacks fought for confederation, would laugh at me."

A: Smile and kindly remind your entourage that "A lot of French fought for the Germans in the last big war in Europe. Lots of French women liked German soldiers too it seems…"

Have a great weekend!

Gratten,
<start>
I don't believe there are any "lost causers" on here. It has seemed to me in my time on TMP, that that is normally what others call anyone on TMP who refuses to agree that the Civil War was "only" about slavery.

It was not "only" about slavery. I don't believe Murphy is a "lost causer".
<end>

<Now a general statement>
Were there blacks who fought for the Confederacy? sure.

Were there great numbers? No

Did most who served fight? No, they did other things though.

Did they do this voluntarily. Yes, some did, others did not.

Did all blacks hate the whites in the South, especially their owners if they were slaves? Not from what I have read and what we have above. Probably depended more on how they were treated, what they did and if they were able to keep and have a family. I doubt most were happy as some real "lost causers" used to try and tell us. But obviously some were happy. Slavery has been around since man existed and there are always some who have thrived in it. But no matter what, they were still slaves and at the mercy of their owners and if a good one died, life could quickly become hell.

Lastly in the great scheme of the war, if some blacks fought for the Confederacy, what does it really matter? There were whites and blacks in the North who would not fight and some whites in the north who hated the black as badly as the worst of the south. Look at the NYC draft riots. In the end, It's history and it should all be read and known, if it indeed happened.

"A lot of French fought for the Germans in the last big war in Europe. Lots of French women liked German soldiers too it seems…"

insane things and utter rubbish as usual with the country and people of the dirty froggies land, a lot, around 40% of the French male population 5 millions of men fought against the nazis while the United States were neutrals or applauded the victory of their German Nazi partners and friends over France, thing curiously rarely recalled here, bizarre bizarre
the number of French under german uniform, excluding forced conscripts from annexed Alsace never reached a significative number, only a regiment for 40 millions of inhabitants then a brigade-size-so-called-Division, waou all that for that, even the north africans arabs did better in few months of short-lived german occupation, so contrary to this ignorant "a lot" suggests, it is all the opposite it was the lowest proportion with countries like Sweden or Switzerland, no comparison with the rest of Europe Benelux Spain Yugoslavia Eastern Europe and especially Soviet Russia major source who occupied France with the largest contingent of nationals under german uniform from whole Europe

I don't understand such off topic comparison with slaves in the Confederacy if not only a malevolent pretext to a stupid and insulting sentence

blacks armed by "white power" authorities, and even against others blacks, there were everywhere until the 19th century beginning by all the colonial armies of the 17th 18th century, Spanish Portuguese French Dutch Danish British, well rather British insular colonies where even unexpected Maroons were great auxiliaries against fugitive slaves, the only colonial territory very reluctant to arm blacks was precisely the British continental America until the end of 18th century, the Thirteen Colonies future United States
in Morocco it was recruited a large army of slaves until the 17th 18th century reduced to a small royal guard, think to them next time you will see this black guard near Mohammed VI
Brazil, slave state until 1888 largely recruited among their blacks slaves throughout the great war against Paraguay in 1865-1870

obviously a non-exhaustive list

35th OVI,

When exactly did I call anyone on TMP a Lost Causer?
I simply answered a question asking if they still exist.

@Grattan54
They are called "jusqu'au-boutistes".

A passion for history can make some people weird and dangerous.

Who dared to write that you called anyone on TMP of Lost Causer?

@ Murphy
You answered as best you could, and I also know that no matter what you say, there will always be people who will simply say "Nuh uh!". It's the same for everyone.

In my opinion, if there were blacks in the fight against the Yankees, they were in separate units and they were completely unlisted units, it remains to be seen if they were volunteers.

Yes, it's true, the last defenders of Hitler's bunker were French, all volunteers, the majority of whom were Bretons.

Have a great weekend too!

@35thOVI
I totally agree, it's not the good northerners against the bad southerners and the poor blacks in the middle.

@Lilian
Murphy only made this comparison to show that there were blacks who fought against the Yankees in the ACW, just as citizens of occupied Europe also fought against the Allies during WWII.

"35thOVI – When exactly did I call anyone on TMP a Lost Causer?
I simply answered a question asking if they still exist."

(Examples)

"How I wish the Lost Cause would just die already. Facts, evidence, primary sources means nothing to its supporters.

If you mean the Lost Cause, oh yes, it has many supporters.
Die hard supporters that can not be moved even when everything we known about the war goes against them."

I believe Murphy took what was said about "Lost Causers" in those statements and Cleburnes as aimed at him.

<Murphy>

"I am in no way a "lost causer". I am however someone that understands that when someone says "They didn't exist", that they are simply confirming their own ignorance. I've also heard the same claim about Hispanics serving the Confederacy."

If I misunderstood what was being insinuated, I apologize. But it seems he read it that way and that is how I read it.

IMO a "Lost Causer"is someone who tries to argue that slavery was not involved in the South's decision to leave the Union, or it was a very minor reason. Slavery was not evil and all slave owners were kind. All Confederates were good.

Also IMO the opposite of a "Lost Causer" is one who believes the Civil War was about "nothing" but slavery and will hear nothing about the other reasons. All slave owners were evil men. The slaves all hated their masters. No slave would have taken up arms against Union soldiers. All Confederates were evil.

History shows both arguments to be wrong.

Can some please supply me with a book on black conferate troops written by a contempoary, reputable, accademic historian, currently employed in academia? I will also accept academic papers, peer reviewed papers written by a contempoary, reputable, accademic historian, currently employed in academia.

Gratten like I said, if I did misunderstand, I do sincerely apologize.

I've been called a "lost causer" in previous TMP debates by others and I thought Murphy took it that he was being associated with them.

I truly have not seen a real lost causer on TMP. At least what I would call one.

No problem. Understood.