"Regulatory location of the gunners ?" Topic

Hello everyone,
What is the regulatory location of the gunners in combat around an artillery piece during the ACW?

Now that I found 14 spoke wheels for my guns, I would need to put their crews in the right location.

Subject: Artillery – Drilling – Fort Scott National Historic Site (U.S. National Park Service)


link

You will read different variations. This article had a diagram. This shows 8 with piece, which does not include the gun sergeant(S not in diagram). Some will say 10 men, the extra man on the limber getting shells ready and serving as an extra runner to the piece if firing faster(next to #6). One on limber was a corporal(7), as the one who aimed the piece and commanded the firing was a corporal (G). The piece could fire with as few as 2 men, but rate of fire was significantly reduced, as everyone was crossed trained.

Hope this helps.

one would think that in a more tactical game, a crew should take casualties, and that would reduce the rate of fire of the piece, not just put it out of commission all at once.

Most combat reports indicate that the 'staying power' of a battery was more dependent on casualties to the HORSES rather than to the men. Horses are much bigger targets after all and they have to stay close by the guns in case a move is needed. As limber horses were killed or wounded, they would be replaced by horses from the caissons. When those started to run low the battery commander would often retreat with or without orders. Losing a gun was like a regiment losing a flag. When the battery commander saw that he would soon not have enough horses to move his guns he would pull out--even if casualties among the crew were still light. there were exceptions, of course, like Cushing's Battery at Gettysburg.

@35thOVI
Bravo because this is exactly the kind of information I'm looking for.

But what is explained is the same for the Yankee and the Rebels?

And the number of crew, their locations and their drill is the same for all types of field artillery pieces of the Yankee and the Rebels?

@jgawne
Good point, so since the number of crew can go from 10 to 2, the rate of fire must have been very different?

Are there statistics on the rates of fire or are the personnel put out of action during the fight replaced automatically and the rate of fire does not change?

@ScottWashburn
Good point, kill the horses and the battery will be out of action, same for the cavalry in some conflicts but maybe not for the ACW.

It seems that the minimum service of an artillery piece required only three men?

"It seems that the minimum service of an artillery piece required only three men?"

*NJH:I've read sources that assert only two men are needed. Along with the admonition that effectiveness and rate-of-fire are seriously degraded with every loss. :^)

@DJCoaltrain
Obviously, one alone could not.

It would be interesting to know the statistics on the firing rates according to the number of gunners, if only for the wargame.

But what is explained is the same for the Yankee and the Rebels?

And the number of crew, their locations and their drill is the same for all types of field artillery pieces of the Yankee and the Rebels?

Yes
And
To my knowledge

Yes as few as two could run a piece. But those two had to do the job of every position, including running back and forth from the limber, normally around 17 yards behind the piece and preparing that round. So fire would be much slower.

Fully manned and with an experienced crew, they should be able to get around 3 "aimed" rounds a minute. Some will debate this, but is what I have heard the most often.

It would be interesting to know the statistics on the firing rates according to the number of gunners, if only for the wargame.

As an intellectual effort perhaps. For combat purposes even in wargames such knowledge would be useless. As losses mount there is going to come a point where either the gunners will be seeking to withdraw the guns, or will be abandoning them. I could see a situation where an artillery command realized withdraw was no longer an option and left loaded guns with single gunners to fire off one final shot as the enemy approached, but firing a gun and operating it are not the same. If you've got a battery with mounting casualties but which is not threatened with being overrun I suspect the more common approach would be to reduce the number of guns being serviced.

Before issuing the command "Ready", the gunner "steps to where he can observe the effects of the shot" (NPS Manual). Out side and behind the wheels but generally to the right of the piece.

Just thought, the "gunner" is a corporal in charge of the piece and that's my answer in post above.. The other seven are "cannoneers" numbered based on their duties in the operation. For miniature mounting:

#1 – even with right of wheel with staff
#2 – even with left of wheel
#3 – a little behind and outside of the right wheel
#4 – out side the left wheel with lanyard
#5 – front of and outside left wheel of limber
#6 and #7 – behind the limber to work the box

General rule, unless the drill required duty behind and within the wheels, don't go there.

@35thOVI
The rebels chose the simplest solution.

Alas between reality and theory in fact we must always believe what indicates the slowest rates.

@Bill N
For combat reasons, even in war games, such knowledge would be useless.

Well no the fewer servants you have the less quickly you shoot, logically?

@cwbuff
So on the sketch of the link posted by 35thOVI, the N°5 and 7 are not in their places?

hi EEE ya "Obviously, one alone could not."

Bugs B. & Yosemite S. had several artillery duels being the only one manning their respective artillery pieces. :^)

#5 is the runner. He carries the next round for the piece. He carries it from the limber to the gunner for inspection if necessary and then to the #2 man for loading. He does this as long as they are firing.

The #7 man is the limber corporal normally. He could stand there or behind the limber. He supervises the preparation of each round and correctness.

Are you planning on doing a 1 man to 1 man ratio? Otherwise I've never seen anyone concerned about the men on the limbers. Normally in games the field piece has some number of men on the stand (we use 4). The limber normally is connected to the horse teams, with maybe 2 riding the limber and 2 on the horses, or none on the horses. But I've never seen the limbers just sitting behind the gun with the limber crew in a game and no horses.

See it all the time at living history.

But maybe you aren't using "fire and fury".

Hi Eee

I might suggest looking at Don Troiani paintings. Excellent source of uniform examples and he is very good about researching details.

@DJCoaltrain
Well, well, well, cannon duels instead of revolvers could have been fun. LOL :^)

@35thOVI
What I originally wanted was to know where to place ACW gunner figurines, the one with a rammer, the one with a trail spike, the one with open hands because with my'S' ranges there is only three references of gunner figurines per piece…

A ratio of 1 man for 1 man?

I thought about it because it's so aesthetic but the problem is that I wouldn't want a skirmish game.

(Looking from the rear of the piece forward)

The trail spike would go into the end of the trail(cannot think of the actual name of the piece it is pushed into). Used to move the pieces left or right when aiming and at the command of the gunner. #3 man moves it when gunner is aiming the round. Then on the command "ready" #3 goes back to his normal position at the right rear of the barrel by the vent. (He is Also responsible for thumbing the vent. Uses the thumb stall on his thumb to keep air from getting into the vent).

The gunner normally signifies "ready" saying "ready", and both hands in the air.

@35thOVI
I am waiting for my guns at the right scale for my "S" range (25mm to Six Feet) from one manufacturer and 14-spoke wheels at the same scale from another manufacturer.

You see I am motivated but alas I only have Whitworth, Parrot and Napoleon Guns.

But contrary to what I wrote to you above, with my 'S' ranges, I actually only have 2 gunners per piece which for me is ugly, so I will have to "make" the others (we will see how many) and which ones.

Indeed MiniFigs in 'S' range only offered the references for the union:

A.C.W. 9s Union Artilleryman Holding Trail Spike.

A.C.W. 10s Union Artilleryman Holding Rammer.

A.C.W. 15s Artilleryman Firing Gun.

A.C.W. 16s Artilleryman Holdins Shell.

and

A.C.W. 21s Union Artilleryman Firing Gun.

but impossible to find :

A.C.W. 15s Artilleryman Firing Gun.

A.C.W. 16s Artilleryman Holdins Shell.

and

A.C.W. 21s Union Artilleryman Firing Gun.

It makes you wonder if these references existed because all the different collectors who sold me their figurines used A.C.W. 9s Union Artilleryman Holding Trail Spike modified to make Artillerymen Firing Gun.

And for the Confederate MiniFigs in 'S' range only offered the references :

A.C.W. 15s Artilleryman Firing Gun.

A.C.W. 16s Artilleryman Holdins Shell.

A.C.W. 18s Confederate Artilleryman Holding
Rammer.

A.C.W. 19s Confederate Artilleryman Holding Trail
Spike.

A.C.W. 20s Confederate Artilleryman Firing Gun.

but impossible to find the :

A.C.W. 15s Artilleryman Firing Gun.

A.C.W. 16s Artilleryman Holdins Shell.

and

A.C.W. 20s Confederate Artilleryman Firing Gun.

One wonders if these references existed because all the different collectors who sold me their figurines used A.C.W. 18s to make Artillerymen Firing Gun.

And it's exactly the same problem with the British, French and Russian artillerymen from the MiniFigs 25mm Crimean war 'S' range, the Artilleryman Holding Trail Spike references from this range are transformed into artilleryman Firing Gun figures.

A.C.W. 9s Union Artilleryman Holding Trail Spike. #3 man

A.C.W. 10s Union Artilleryman Holding Rammer. #1

A.C.W. 15s Artilleryman Firing Gun. #4

A.C.W. 16s Artilleryman Holdins Shell. #2

@35thOVI
Thanks, I only have #1 and #3 for each of my pieces, what am I missing at least per gun?

And the American guns didn't have an ammunition box on the axles?

Eee

The positions on the gun were 1,2,3,4. I have 4 on all my pieces, but sometimes I have the gunner instead of one of the others, as that is what came in the packs.

You just do not want to place a #1 in a #3 position, or #4 in a #1… etc. players will notice if your #1 with the spong/ram is standing in the #3 position.. etc.

Limber on the axles. Not with the most used pieces, 12lb Nap, 3 inch ordinance, 10lb Parrot. All had limbers. To my knowledge chest on the piece were no longer used in the war. Field artillery all limbered to my knowledge.

@35thOVI
For now I only have 2 figures per piece, by the way, they are the ones we see in the photos of the 1972-1973 minifig catalog, in the photo there are only two gunners per gun!

And impossible to find ACW 'S' range guns, I think those that are still sold are a continuation of those created at the time for the 'S' range.

I will compare with the photos.

@All

US regulations prescribed a captain as a battery commandeer. A battery would have three sections: left, right, and center. Four lieutenants served under the captain. Six noncommissioned officers were mounted to direct the movement of each piece. There was also a bugler.

At the Yankees each gun had a crew that consisted of nine men.

This included the "gunner" who was the chief of the piece, the chief of caisson, and seven artillerymen who were all assigned numbers for servicing the piece.

A light artillery battery consisted of sixty-six men at full regulation strength.

1/And what about the regulatory strength of a battery among the rebels since they only had 4 pieces per battery?

2/ So the limbers were unharnessed, but how far were they behind the cannon?

1. I would assume that you could reduce the numbers for a 6-gun battery by 2/3.

2. The regulation distance was for the limbers to be 6 yards to the rear of the guns. the caissons would be 11 yards to the rear of the limbers.

@ScottWashburn
1.By 2/3, I thought about it but it's too simple.

2.What part of the limber is at 6 yards?

Since the theoretical strengths of the infantry and cavalry units were not respected, those of the artillery batteries should not be either?

So we no longer have 9 crew members per piece?

Hi EEE read this. Nice photo at the end of a deployed War union battery.
The distance between the actual limber and the piece, well you will get different answers. I've heard 13 to 17 yards. Why? Well you have 32 to 50 rounds of ammunition with all the powder that propels those rounds. An explosion of that 💥 limber and if too close, you take out gun and limber. This also has some nice diagrams.

The national park requires that our limber be 6 feet back, but that is living history distance and of course we have no horses pulling it.

Subject: Prospect Hill Artillery Footprint | Mercer Square


link

A battery strength varies from 150 to 60 some. But almost nobody was ever at full strength. Also don't forget you have caissons, traveling forges and wagons in a battery.

Darrell (35th OVI) provided great information.

hiEEEya, when you get Mark Adkin's book, it has a great illustration of artillery guns, limbers and caissons including textbook deployment distance and location.

That said, battlefield conditions and terrain were the ultimate determining factor on deployments. Guns could be deployed much closer together as the Union artillery placed on Cemetery Hill was, and limbers and caissons could be deployed much further to the rear if there was significant risk or if terrain precluded that there was insufficient room to place it near the guns such as occurred with union artillery on Houck's Ridge and Little Round Top.

Also, it was not uncommon for artillery that had their crews reduced in battle to utilize supporting infantry to fill in to keep the guns in action if they were being pressed.

Kim

Thanks Kim. That's
Correct, there is never an exact. Once war and battles start, all things can and do change, based on circumstances.

I could just picture Hunt running up to Cushing and saying: "Damn it Cushing!!! Your limbers are to close and your guns are not far enough apart!! Correct this immediately!!! But General Hunt there's Confederates…. " 😉

@ KimRYoung
I bought Mark Adkin's book on August 20th with Standard International shipping this item should arrive in 21 to 31 days…

On the other hand I also bought THE SMOOTHBORE ORDNANCE JOURNAL VOLUME 10 on the AMERICAN CIVIL WAR SMOOTHBORE ARTILLERY and THE SMOOTHBORE ORDNANCE JOURNAL 12 on the AMERICAN CIVIL WAR RIFLED ARTILLERY.

These books that I know for other artillery give all the sizes of all the parts of a gun or a limber, its performance etcetera.

With this I will be able to make my models at the exact scale of my Minifigs 25mm 'S' ranges = 25 mm for 6 feet.

@35thOVI
Thanks for the link.

By the way are the limbers always unhitched in combat?

But how do they manage to retreat quickly in case of unforeseen circumstances?

I always thought that the limbers of the 19th century artillery and before remained harnessed during pitched battles.

Is this specific to the ACW?

To my knowledge the horses were kept hooked with the limber. Retreat and movement in battle were always necessary and time was paramount.

But I could be wrong and someone can always say differently if they know better. 🙂

I have read accounts of limber teams being removed to safety when the battery was not expected to be moved or would not be under attack.

This would be an exception, but like has been previously pointed out, when in a battle you sometimes improvise.

If the enemy was in close proximity, the teams would remain in place just in case the battery would have to be moved quickly as hi EEE ya asked.

Kim