"Russian meat waves" Topic

You cannot talk abour democracy… you don't know nothing about it
…

Democracy heart… yes… it's no easy nor funny … but is the way people can choose… even with great mistakes from their part… that's the way to lern…

You have never ask what about those who "loose" in an election… they have to close files and and hold on until you have your chance… and if the rest don't support you… keep holding on…

Any other "claim" or "injustice" for the non-winning party of an election in democracy, there are ways to manifest it… never by armed means, much less by invading another's country… that is the backbone of the Nazi mandate and the excuse that they and you Russians have used throughout history and incredibly now too… in the end… Patton and Churchill were right…

Armand

Fake history is a crucial weapon in Vladimir Putin's bid to destroy Ukraine

link

Armand

Sorry, yes. Yanukovych was not impeached…he was removed by the Ukrainian legislative body, for abandoning his constitutional duties & fleeing the country. So they held new elections. Still not a coup.

Damon.

Tango01, you are a true democrat. Are you ready to silence anyone who does not share your point of view)))

Garand, what is a coup?
In Kyiv, two groups are confronting each other: the legally elected president and the group of dissatisfied people, whose candidate lost in the previous elections. This group of rioters is demanding the immediate resignation of the duly elected president. These rioters are openly supported by official representatives of foreign states (this direct interference in the internal affairs of the country is actually an act of aggression against an independent state. Imagine that now in the United States, at rallies in front of supporters of one of the candidates, official representatives of Russia or China will begin to speak out with support. How do you feel about this? perceive?). All private media support the rebels (the oligarchs are preparing for the redistribution of property). Rioters seize administrative buildings and military units in the west of the country. At the same time, Western countries demand that Yanukovych not take harsh measures against the rebels, threatening sanctions (and again aggression – Athena's war).
The eastern regions are still reacting sluggishly. They simply believe that the law is on their side. But Yanukovych gives in under pressure from the West and signs the imposed agreement. According to this agreement, he remains without protection – security forces are withdrawn from Kyiv. And Yanukovych runs away, fearing for his life.
But in response to the coup in Kyiv, the eastern regions also begin to seize administrative buildings and arm themselves, as armed Nazi troops begin to arrive from the west to suppress dissent. Candidates for the new Ukrainian government from the eastern regions, proposing the creation of a federal Ukraine, are intimidated and expelled, deprived of the opportunity to participate in elections. In the east of Ukraine, a militia is being convened to repel the rioters. Volunteers are arriving from Crimea and Russia.
In response to this, the "new government" sends troops against the east of the country and begins military operations. The gradual development of events leads to the current situation.
This is the chronology of events. Isn't this a coup? For the west of Ukraine – no. For the east – yes.
I consider further dispute pointless.

"I consider further dispute pointless."

So do we.

Agreed …

It is evident that you use another fallacy to defend the indefensible… in any moment did I say or am I in a position to silence anyone here… this is not a Ruzy Forum.

And reading your explanation about good old Yanukovych, it is more than clear that you have no idea or understand what democracy is in a country… the quantity or quality of the protests does not matter… the only thing that matters in the end is the vote… and no country has any right to invade if the result does not suit them… and that is what you Ruzis usually do…

By the way…please, wrote a letter to your government requesting better treatment for your wounded soldiers at the front… the videos of those poor mutilated people poorly fed, poorly treated and sent to the front equally on crutches is pathetic and pitiful… as much as the poor Chinese o "Volunteer" Nepalese who complain that they were lied to assuring them that they would only do rearguard work and they would not even get to collect their first salary for death on the front… where are the thousands of Russian volunteers who break down the doors of the barracks to go fight in that patriotic "Special Operation"..

Armand

Armand

There still seems to be some facts that are self-evident with the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

1) Russia's invasion was unprovoked …

2) Russia's Military was incompetent …

3) Russia has no plan to disengage …

4) Russians perfomed like truly Nazis-Barbarians.

5) Russia had looting and destruction as its objective from day one.

6)Russia has no idea or doesn't care about human rights

Armand

Cuprum: "China is not an ally of Russia"

Very true. Like once muscovy was puppet of Golden Horde, they now are puppets of China and will rage wars until last Russian. History repeat itself.

Tango +1

Cuprum: "In Kyiv, two groups are confronting each other: the legally elected president and the group of dissatisfied people, whose candidate lost in the previous elections."

No. The traitor and murderer, bribed by muscovites, against free people of Ukraine.
Ukrainians don't wanted to step into fecales but fecales occurred to be revengeous.
Now another traitor try to hostile take over Georgia.

7) Russia broke its word in not honouring Ukrainian independence as per The Budapest Memorandum. Incidentally, the US is duty bound to help Ukraine by the said memorandum.

Herk +1 But from what I can tell the Russians only honor their word if it suits them …

Herkybird + 2

Cuprum forget to comment about that…

The truly base for all that mess…

Armand

"Nothing on this board became him like the leaving of it," to paraphrase Shakespeare.

I respect a commenter who says he's leaving, and goes. So many of them do the opposite.

Hasta la vista baby !

Well, back to meat waves.

A couple of YouTubers addressed the topic. It started with HistoryLegends here:

YouTube link

And Ryan McBeth added his .02 into it here:
YouTube link

The article McBeth referrs to is here:
link

Oh, here's an interesting analysis by TRADOC about Russian assault units and how they use different maneuver units, like disposable infantry, to conduct assaults.

link

This is a link to the Ukrainian reserve officer mentioned in a couple of these documents. He has broken down Russian assault units down to the company and platoon level with a rough TO&E. Interesting stuff that reminds me of the assault units the Soviets used in WWII. What's old is new again?

link

Very interesting …

From early on the BTG seemed to not be an effective unit. Plus, many in the BTG lacked the proper training coupled with poor leadership. Add the poor Russian Log support … We see how this ended up.

The Assault Tm … Save for the addition of a drone, not much else has changed, I'd think.

These are much smaller units compared to what the BTGs had. This allows them some level of maneuver on the battlefields of Ukraine where, at best, you *might* be able to mass a company or so of troops to attack without drawing the attention of every artillery battery and drone in the neighborhood.

Some of the sources mention a YouTuber called Perun. He did some analysis of these tactics on his channel. He does pretty long 1+ hour Powerpoint style lectures which are very interesting. Here's the link to the one where he looks at these tactics as introduced by the Wagner PMC at Bakhmut last year. They really remind me of some of the tactics the Soviets used during WWII like at Stalingrad- small assault units build around automatic weapons and some heavy weapons/vehicles.

youtu.be/4fqHERDXVpk?t=1259

These are much smaller units compared to what the BTGs had. This allows them some level of maneuver on the battlefields of Ukraine where, at best, you *might* be able to mass a company or so of troops to attack without drawing the attention of every artillery battery and drone in the neighborhood.

The Russian losses are high in both men and equipment so the BTG would be smaller.

Perun is known to have a lot of knowledge and know what he is talking about. E.g. Accurate and no bias …

Yup, and you get Australian snark mixed in with the occasional 40K reference for good measure.

This video, around 7.12, shows these tactics being pioneered by Wagner:

youtu.be/lOWfavoTH88?t=432

You basically have 'good' troops supported by 'disposable' troops attacking Ukrainian positions. They start with artillery to suppress the defenders, then the 'disposable' troops attack in waves with about a dozen to 20+ soldiers in each wave. This trips off Ukrainian defensive fires (direct and indirect) and thus the Russians figure out their locations. The 'good' troops maneuver with support from their special fires squads and AFVs which *may* allow them to overrun the position, or drive the Ukrainians out once they are exhausted or depleted. Then rinse and repeat over and over.

Yup, and you get Australian snark mixed in with the occasional 40K reference for good measure

What's not to like ! 😎

You basically have 'good' troops supported by 'disposable' troops attacking Ukrainian positions.

Yes, today no European modern capable military should never have disposable troops. Which in this case includes Russian AFVs. Which have taken huge losses. Russia is fighting a war of attrition as long as they have bodies to throw at the Ukrainians they will. Like WWI not modern combined arms maneuver warfare. Hoping to attrite Ukraine to the point they will have go to the peace table. With Russia keeping the Donbas and Crimea in the end.

*Yes, today no European modern capable military should never have disposable troops.*

Indeed, it's an evil tactic that shows little regard for human life. It's also where people get the idea of "human wave" assaults too. But it's not. You're not going to see masses of bodies rushing forward with Russian flags yelling "URRAH!!!"

However, we are seeing a cynical set of tactics that have little regard for the lives of the 'disposable' troops- even if they are convicted killers and rapists (that's what capital punishment is for, but that's another argument).

Yes, agreed … It certainly seems very evil to waste peoples' lives that way … And I'm afraid Putin et al will not be held accountable for any of their evil actions.

FOUND IT! Sometime ago, Battle Order built a video detailing these tactics, to some degree, and built a video about it. Here it is!

YouTube link

Will have to check it out when I have more time ! Thanks !