| Hobhood | 23 Jun 2024 3:09 p.m. PST |
Hi
I am looking to build a 1st Crusade Fatimid force. I'm aware that most of the infantry were sub-Saharan Africans. Gripping Beast makes some helmeted medium infantry types but I was wondering what to use as light Infantry. There seem to be no such figures available apart from 'Sudanese' types with long robes/Turbans etc. My thought was to use colonial period Beja figures such as are made by Perry. link Any opinions on this possibility? I'd think that not a great deal had changed in terms of appearance despite the large time gap… |
| Prince Rupert of the Rhine | 23 Jun 2024 11:42 p.m. PST |
I think most of the soldiers in Fatmid armies were Nubians or south Sudanese. The Nubians had to send tribute (baqt) which was meant to be slaves be latter included things like exotic animals. The slaves probably came from Nubian raiding into South Sudan so possibly look at Foundry's Darkest Africa tribesmen or Copplestone Darkest Africa Dinka. Most south Sudanese went about naked but I'm guessing the Fatmids probably at least covered up there man regions with a lion cloth. |
| IanWillcocks | 24 Jun 2024 1:20 a.m. PST |
I must admit I know very little on the 1st Crusade but I do want to eventually get round to a Reconquista project and have always thought the the plastic Perry's Beja would be acceptable light African slave troops. |
| olicana | 24 Jun 2024 8:42 a.m. PST |
The look of the Beja (before the adoption of the Mahdist jibba) goes back into pre-Roman times, so it is possible that some 'Fatimid' troops looked like this. When I was sourcing figures for my own plans for a 1st Crusade Fatimid army (yet to start) I planned on using Beja for what WRG 6th describes as Abyssinian swordsmen – even though such troops border on the 'fictional'. I planned on a single unit and thought to change their shields from their own rhino hide variety to shields more 'Arabic' in design. For Sudanese Ghulams, which should form the vast bulk of a 1st Crusade Fatimid army, you should be looking at troops like this from the Armies of the Caliphates range by Footsore. link link Archers were the predominant foot soldier, perhaps 80%. There are also some figures in the Gripping Beast (Moors) range but they lack a suitable archer.
Old Glory also do Sudanese Ghulam foot but I've never seen them in the flesh. By popular consent, some OG figures are good, some are not so good. My own Fatimid army (using Footsore) is very much on hold. £9.00 GBP for 4 figures is a lot when you want about 240 of the bu*gers. |
| GurKhan | 24 Jun 2024 9:25 a.m. PST |
Dr Brendan Moyle (of the rules "Shattered Lances") was dead set against the idea that most Fatimid Sudanese troops were archers. There's a Slingshot article somewhere, or see link – "While there is a long-standing belief that the Sudanese in the Fatimid army were mostly archers (see for instance, Smail's Crusading Warfare) this is not supported by contemporary evidence" – and read on. The infantryman in the lower picture at link is the only depiction of a Fatimid African I can think of, and he's an 18th-century copy of a 12th-century French source, so perhaps not the most reliable rendering. The best-known reference to swordsmen is Nasir-i-Khusrau's mention (in a parade in the 1030s) of 30,000 Zanj who fought with the sword: "Zanj" is a fairly generic term for East Africans but this seems to be the only time it's used for Fatimid soldiers. It _might_ imply people from a more remote and wilder region than the bulk of the Black troops. I should think that Beja figures would be fine for these guys. |
| olicana | 24 Jun 2024 10:23 a.m. PST |
That's an interesting read. Like most 'facts' concerning armies in this period, there is a lot of supposition. |
| olicana | 24 Jun 2024 10:40 a.m. PST |
I've just checked my own sources quickly, especially Nicolle (His best work on the subject probably Vol 2. Crusader Warfare) and he agrees that 'Sudanis' were mostly close combat troops, and their armament varied from sword/mace to javelins/light spear. Funnily enough, I hadn't picked up on that when I read it. I'll check through more sources over the next few days. If I find to the contrary I'll post again. For your perusal, here is my book list (not at all extensive, but a good selection of the most commonly available books on the subject): link A History of the Crusades (3 Vols) – Steven Runciman. [The best history of the Crusades in English.]
The Art of Warfare in the Middle Ages 378 – 1278 – Charles Oman. [Who could be without?]
The First Crusade – Thomas Ashbridge. [A good general history.]
Crusades – Terry Jones and Alan Ereira. [A brief history and a good 'choosing sub period aid'.]
The Wars of the Crusades – Terence Wise. [A sound military history.]
Battles of the Crusades 1097 – 1444 – Various authors. [This is a big, coffee table, 'battle book'. It covers 20 battles in its 224 pages.]
Warriors of God – James Reston, Jr. [History of the 3rd Crusade.]
Dungeon, Fire and Sword – John J. Robinson. [The ripping yarn of the Templars – a page turner.]
Byzantium, The Decline and Fall – J. J. Norwich.
Crusader Warfare (2 vols) – David Nicolle. [Essential wargamers' reading.]
Crusading Warfare 1o97 – 1193 – R. C. Smail. [Essential wargamers' reading.]
A Wargamers' Guide to the Crusades – Ian Heath. [Title says it all.]
Armies and Enemies of the Crusades – Ian Heath. [Wargames Research Group book. Excellent. Includes line drawings and descriptions of all known (?) troop types.]
Memoires of the Crusades – Villehardouin and de Joinville. [Contemporary accounts.]
People of the First Crusade – Michael Foss [Basic story of the 1st Crusade told well].
The Crusades through Arab Eyes – Amin Maalouf [Good book this one.] Plus the Ospreys [if you like that kind of thing – and David Nicolle]: The First Crusade – David Nicolle
The Second Crusade – David Nicolle
Hattin 1187 – David Nicolle
Saladin and the Saracens – David Nicolle
The Crusades – David Nicolle
Knight Hospitaller – David Nicolle
Saracen Faris – David Nicolle
Byzantine Armies 886 – 1118 – Ian Heath
Armies of the Crusades – Terence Wise |
| GurKhan | 24 Jun 2024 1:22 p.m. PST |
Incidentally, I see that the late Bill Hamblin's thesis on the Fatimid army is downloadable from link (and also from the original university site at link but only if you have U of Michigan access). |
| Druzhina | 25 Jun 2024 6:11 p.m. PST |
Sudanese Spearman in 'Armies and Enemies of the Crusades 1096-1291' by Ian Heath is based on the painted window in the monastery church of St Denis in Paris linked to by Ghurkan. Africans are portrayed in a Caucasian & a Negro Swordsman Fighting, mosaic, Vercelli, Italy, about 1040; in an 'Octateuch', Codex Vaticanus Pal. Graec. 746. Byzantine, 12th century; a negroid with knife, Saracens with Sword and Buckler and Negroid Warriors with Mace in the Carved Column Capitals in the Cloister of Monreale Cathedral near Palermo in Sicily, 1174 to 1182 AD and in Bronze Doors made by Barisano da Trani, Italy, 12th century
Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers
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| Hobhood | 27 Jun 2024 2:40 a.m. PST |
Many thanks for those responses. There seem to be many possibilities here and no absolutely 'clear' representative 'Fatimid' army. Olicana's solution is the easiest to implement as the figures are available – as long as I use Ghulam archers. |
| Marcus Brutus | 27 Jun 2024 8:47 p.m. PST |
There are also some figures in the Gripping Beast (Moors) range but they lack a suitable archer. I use Footsore Black Guard archers for the support archers with the GP Moors as depicted above. A perfect match. |
| IanWillcocks | 28 Jun 2024 7:36 a.m. PST |
Just seen that Wargames Atlantic have digital files for Nubian Spearman for Fatimid Armies. link |
