Captain Siborne ![Supporting Member of TMP Supporting Member of TMP](boards/icons/sp.gif) | 14 Jun 2024 2:03 a.m. PST |
Having studied Waterloo for many years it seems almost impossible to believe that there could be an aspect of the battle that you have never previously noticed. But in studying the eastern end of the Allied line, I have noticed something new and am surprised that it has gone unnoticed in any report that I have read. Maybe I am being stupid and I would welcome anyone who can help enlighten me. Let me explain…
Given this visual evidence, can anyone provide information on what happened to these buildings during the battle? Were they defended by the Nassauers? were they attacked by Durutte? were they successfully defended or were they taken? I will ask permission of the National Army Museum for close ups of the model so that we can construct appropriate models. |
bobspruster ![Supporting Member of TMP Supporting Member of TMP](boards/icons/sp.gif) | 14 Jun 2024 6:07 a.m. PST |
Do you suppose they were built after the battle and before Siborne did his survey? Bob |
deadhead ![Supporting Member of TMP Supporting Member of TMP](boards/icons/sp.gif) | 14 Jun 2024 8:22 a.m. PST |
I did wonder that in my WhatsApp response and included other maps, but all are post the battle. The mystery buildings mostly relate to the Chemin des Cossaques and Google allows you to "walk" that until it becomes a footpath. An aerial view even suggests another structure beyond that, to the right. Many a building looks like it has been there quite some time but even Siborne's model suggests nothing remotely on the scale of the legendary buildings. Maybe not much use tactically even they were there? |
Captain Siborne ![Supporting Member of TMP Supporting Member of TMP](boards/icons/sp.gif) | 14 Jun 2024 9:33 a.m. PST |
I'm pretty sure that Siborne took care to represent only buildings that were there on 18 June. |
CHRIS DODSON ![Supporting Member of TMP Supporting Member of TMP](boards/icons/sp.gif) | 14 Jun 2024 10:10 a.m. PST |
Jac Weller's 1967 book has aerial photos of this area showing several structures, west of Papelotte, some of which he claims are original. Adkin's map has at least one on display, surrounded by Durutte's men. I have e mailed the picture to the good Captain. Best wishes, Chris |
14Bore | 14 Jun 2024 11:29 a.m. PST |
Assuming they were there I would think farm buildings, barns, animal pens, workers residents, game keepers, farm houses. Lots of possibilities |
Prince of Essling | 14 Jun 2024 3:13 p.m. PST |
Interesting as some French maps have the buildings listed as "Smolhain" or "Smouhen"! The Craan map shows in total 6 structures. I have a highly scalable version (3,895kb) of his map which I can send you (or anyone else who might be interested). Ping an e-mail to prinzessling at gmail.com |
Prince of Essling | 15 Jun 2024 1:40 a.m. PST |
Willem Benjamin Craan is best known for his 1816 map of the battlefield of the Battle of Waterloo in which he provided the initial dispositions of all armies concerned, based on information gleaned from many participants in the battle from all sides. Captain William Siborne undertook his journey to Waterloo in May 1830 (page 49 in "Wellington's smallest victory – the Duke, the model maker" by Peter Hofschröer, Faber & Faber 2004). Note this was some years after the Waterloo battlefield had been altered – in particular the Lion Mound. |
Captain Siborne ![Supporting Member of TMP Supporting Member of TMP](boards/icons/sp.gif) | 16 Jun 2024 2:30 a.m. PST |
That's so kind, Essling, I'll do that! |
hannover | 02 Sep 2024 1:58 p.m. PST |
The three buildings you mention are shown on Craan's map of 1816 and are also present on McLagan & Cumming lithograph (Edinburgh) published in 1908. I have images of both but are unable to post them here. If you want a copy please message me and I will e-mail you the copies I have. How they were omitted from other maps is a different question. The size of the buildings suggest they were small holdings attached to the estates. This would mean they were quite small and therefore not mentioned in any of the fighting as they were largely insignificant compared to Papelotte or even the buildings in Smohain village. |
Captain Siborne ![Supporting Member of TMP Supporting Member of TMP](boards/icons/sp.gif) | 04 Sep 2024 12:57 a.m. PST |
many thanks Hannover, I would be hugely grateful, thank you! |
hannover | 04 Sep 2024 3:45 a.m. PST |
The Craan map was obviously used by Adkin 'The Waterloo Companion' for Map 28 on page 353. The hedge lines are similar to the Craan map and Adkin shows one unnamed building southwest of Papelotte however this does not coincide with any of the positions of the buildings shown on the Craan map. I think Adkin misinterpreted one of the buildings as a continuation of a hedge line but it definitely is a building on the Craan map. Craan's map actually shows 3 buildings plus a larger double building which interestingly Adkin shows one of the French units occupying exactly this position on Map 28 approximately 200 yards directly west of Papelotte Farm. |
Prince of Essling | 04 Sep 2024 5:14 a.m. PST |
Craan shows 6 structures West & South West of Papelotte (admittedly 2 sets of 2 are very close together) – extract of appropriate section of the map can be downloaded from link |
Allan F Mountford | 06 Sep 2024 10:14 a.m. PST |
Our old friend George Jones has left us this sketched on the spot in 1815. Kind regards Allan uurl.kbr.be/1914577 |
Prince of Essling | 06 Sep 2024 3:48 p.m. PST |
Some could well be cottages as below is a drawing of the "View of the Cottage of Valette, with the Road on the Left Leading to Frischermont" by James Rouse:
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