"Looking for Massed Battle 28mm Ancient Rules" Topic

Hi,

I'm looking for a set of Massed Battle 29mm Rules that can be used for Ancients/Early Medieval to introduce to my fellows at the club, who seem to be hell bent on playing WAB.

I'm thinking something the size of Warhammer ancient Battles (multi player) and Hail Caesar.

Games we have tried and are not interested in playing are To the Strongest (I don't mind it but my fellows hate it) and probably Hail Caesar (I don't mind it but my fellows almost certainly hate it).

We're not looking for over complex rules, but something that is not vanilla, is interesting with various troop types and abailites etc.

I know, it's a big question but I would be pleased to hear from anyone who has any ideas.

Cheers

Pic for interest-

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Sword and Spear
Neil Thomas Ancient Wargame rules

I of course meant 28mm and *not 29mm in the title!

Dexter Ward

Sword and Spear
Neil Thomas Ancient Wargame rules

Can you elaborate on both sets please?

I have both but as far as I can see Sword and spear seems to lack a morale system and the Neil Thomas book needs a lot added to it to get a period feel?

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not WAB, but WABbish? Clash of Empires: link

Late Ancients & Early Medieval?: you could try Comitatus legio-wargames.com/about-3

3rd Century?: sammustafa.com/aurelian

Armati: link

Polemos SPQR: link

(and a free version by the author for Classical Greece, to see if you like the concepts link )

Lost Battles: link

Kings of War: Historicals. It is available digitally from Mantic: link

Kings of War is our go to set of rules for massed battles. And sometimes even unmassed .

AND the Army Builder is still active so you can DYO your own forces if you'd like: kowh.easyarmy.com

To be honest, I believe the basic KoW rules are free from Mantic. D/L them, use the Army Builder to come up with unit stats for armies you have and Bobs your Uncle….

Dave

Big Battle DBA 3.0

Impetus

Atheling, I recognize you from the Impetus board. My group played Impetus for more than a decade and enjoyed it. We especially liked the big dioramic bases.

We have switched over to Sword and Spear. I takes a bit of time to get used to but having played it now for a couple of years it really produces great games. It uses the same basing system as Impetus. Large units can be one base. The large Frank units below are based on 12by12 cm bases. I think this makes them look even better than Impetus.

The Sword and Spear system is elegant and not particularly complicated but gives players some interesting command choices to make. The other feature is that it uses multiple dice for melee which means a 6/1 split never happens (something that used to drive us nuts in Impetus.) Of course one can roll badly with more dice but what this means is that an unlucky player feels like he has a chance for much longer in a Sword and Spear game than most other systems. And comebacks happen more often in Sword and Spear than a lot of other games.

The game is primarily designed for one on one but we've come up with our own multiplayer activation system that I have used at several large cons with 6 players. I think it works very well.

Sword and Spear is a unique system but if you wanted to compare it to another set I would see it as a very simplified version of ADLG.

theminiaturespage.com/http://theminiaturespage.com‌

‌"TMP link

If you're clubmates are "hell bent on playing WAB", isn't the best bet going to be to bite the bullet, go along with the majority and agree to play WAB with all of them ?

After all, the default advice when anyone asks "what's the best ruleset for me to pick up?" in any period is always "find out what's played locally and play that" ?
..

If you're clubmates are "hell bent on playing WAB", isn't the best bet going to be to bite the bullet, go along with the majority and agree to play WAB with all of them?

I think the implicit understanding is that Atheling hates WAB and is trying to find a game system that everyone can love. :)

Played WAB for almost a decade. When the 2012 WH implosion occurred my player group had the same problem…where to take the large 25mm/28mm collections to without rebasing.

Played HC and found the game too fluid, the same powerful leader rules but had a strong level of support from the ex WAB groups.

Warmaster…. never got past the rules

Finally settled on Clash of Empires (COE) for ease of team play since the choices back in 2012-14 were limited. The biggest problem we have is remembering the old WAB rules during play instead of the modified COE rule mechanics. There are differences. One advantage to note, all the old WAB army lists easily transfer over into COE play and format.

That was all back in 2012-14 era. Since then many other ancient rule sets have come out, mostly to play smaller level games. Some are mentioned above. My group has looked at them but re basing the huge miniature collections totally out of the question. Still with Clash of Empires, till a better set arrives using the old WAB basing system.

War and Conquest, WAB like rules but they fixed many of the issues with WAB. Also, army lists are free online.

There are a lot of ancient rile sets about. I am sure one of them will suit you fine.

Do consider "CONQUERORS and KINGS@ from Peter pIg.
link
Here is a proper summary of the rules.

They are battle and not skirmish rules.
Each army has about 15 units in it.
As they are grid based, unit footprint does not matter.

There are also 18 free to download Historical battles so far available.
Play sheets and battle sheets are also free to download.

This is the second edition. Edition 1 was brought out in 1998.

martin

martin

I have both but as far as I can see Sword and spear seems to lack a morale system

I am not sure what you mean by morale system? If you mean foot being charged by mounted knights, no there is no morale tests (although units fighting elephant have to test.) But the unit's discipline rating is very important in the game and morale is subsumed in the system in various ways. As the author says, "The rules are designed from a top-down perspective, focusing on outcomes rather than detail." I interpret "detail" to mean showing the player the step by step processes by which a unit proceeds through the game. It is this streamlined approach that makes S&S a pleasant game experience.

In the good 'old' days most ancients players in Scotland played 'Slims Ancient & Medieval' rules. Still available from the Society of Ancients web site (at least it was).

Jim Duncan
Formerly of SESWC

Blimey Jim, that's a blast from the past. My copy of those has yellowed with time and I don't think I have played it for 50 years.

Hi Tony

I have several copies of these rules including a few variations and also have played a few games with them in the last decade.

Jim

link

Tactica Medieval. Excellent rules at and can be modified for flow easily

Aethling

The trouble with these sort of questions is most of the folks who respond will recommended their personal favourite ruleset without considering what the original poster was looking for.

It could be helpful if you could identify what sort of game mechanics or gaming system you are looking for. As the players like WHAB the question is what aspect of WHAB do they enjoy , is it the buckets of dice, in period special rules,figure removal or speed of play.

if so are you seeking something similar. Another question is are there aspects of WHAB you dislike? The often explosive nature of the game does not model the movement of battle lines, which might be the issue.

I note that you always produce fantastic looking armies so is it a desire to keep the figures on the table longer which is of concern. I ask not to be rude or disrespectful but rather to focus yo on what you are after.

As others have opined; if, what you seek is the continuation of WHAB by other means the obvious contenders are Clash of Empires or War and Conquest. I have never played WAC so have no real insight

As a heretical idea, the most recent iteration of Warhammer has toned down the explosiveness with units typically being pushed back and then dissolving, sadly, it is the most bloated and unplayable edition of those rules since 1988. Its as though a DBM competition wargamer re wrote the game.

Not wishing to hijack your thread old chum,. but I have to confess to being a teensy bit envious that you can play those big WHAB games . on my manor ( as we true Londoners are want to say_) the only game in ADLG and that is not my cup of tea

Legend of Doom's makes a good point. Everyone has their personal favorites. Mine is Triumph!, I used to play WAB, my issue was that it took too long to setup a game, play a game etc… and it was not something I could show up to a convention and present in a realistic time frame. Lovely books though.

So my goal was to have a rule set that I could focus on the strategy and the ebb and flow of the battle, get reasonable results in a 3-4 hour period (even with new players) playing a large battle. I wanted to play the ancient battles I loved reading about (as the general), not spend half the game looking up stats on charts or referencing complex tables, but have enough variation in troop type and stats to make it interesting and give a realistic feel to the flow of the battles.

It sounds like your group has some hot button or no-go issues, it might help to list them out and come to some sort of group consensus on what those are.

Is it complexity?
Casualty removal?
Time to complete a game?
Command and control system (too much control, too little)?
Activation?
My horse bow must be able to shoot at range?
Super troops – Romans always win, longbow was a machine gun?

Ok, in answer to a few questions…..

1/ no one like over complex rules- they have to be fun right?

2/ Casualty removal via Base(stand).

3/ Time to complete a game- two three hour sessions.

4/ Command and control as viewed from an ancient general's perspective, not the players.

5/ For activation I would have to say random. no guarantee that you're going to get the next turn but some kind pf mechanism to allow players to increase the chances of them, for want of a better word, bidding for the next turn.

6/ Horse Bow/Composite Bow = equal ranges

7/ Dervel

Super troops – Romans always win, longbow was a machine gun?

Does anyone believe any of that rubbish anymore?

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Atheling,
I would sat from your list you may want to check out Triumph! It might tick some of those boxes.

1. Check – very straight forward rules.

2. Stand/unit removal but not individual figures. Much less than WAB though.

3. Time to complete a large battle – 3 hours experienced players. 4 hours with new players and a GM. Small basic version of the game is 48 points and plays in about an hour.

4. Command Point system which simulates the concept of simultaneous movement (i.e. sometimes you move faster, sometime your opponent does). You do not have perfect control over your troops.

5. Activation is built into the command point system – No way to "bid" though. However, you can have "superior" commanders which get +1 command points for example.

6. If you mean "no effective difference between these weapons? Then yes, missile weapons have similar impacts. However missile fire from non-massed volley archery are abstracted into the combat results and only massed volley fire is represented by on the table ranged combat. this is a detail and scale issue. So for example your typical horse archer does not fire at range, they move into combat and dance away from most troops if they loose because combat for them was ride up and shoot you in the face.

7.

Does anyone believe any of that rubbish anymore?

A slightly hyperbolic comment from me, but from rules questions I get to specific rule sets designed around those questions, I would have to say yes :P

In Triumph! Archers are the same whether they are English Longbow armed or Crossbow, elite foot are elite foot. Army compositions very, but the basic troop types are basically standard across the nationalities.

Good explanation of troop type can be found here along with 655 historical armies:
meshwesh.wgcwar.com/home

Additional Info:
wgcwar.com

My Youtube Channel with some videos including examples of larger games:
youtube.com/channel/UCIMiqEZjn1w43ZN1ox_JXWw

5/ For activation I would have to say random. no guarantee that you're going to get the next turn but some kind pf mechanism to allow players to increase the chances of them, for want of a better word, bidding for the next turn.

Polemos:SPQR just does this. You bid for the 'tempo', i.e. a degree of control over the turn. Tempo points (=PIPS or activation points) are both the currency of bidding and the activation currency too. Roman/drilled and irregular armies have different points costs for different actions to reflect different fighting styles. I think it hits all your other points too, thinking about it (base removal, time per turn, perspective, missile range).

Hello Atheling. Since you are looking for something other than Impetus, give Magna Acies! a look. It is available on Wargame Vault. It seems to tick your boxes for the most part. While it does not have random activation per se, the amount of command points available can vary each turn, and better generals get a bonus.

The author is very knowledgeable about ancient warfare, and has written books on the topic. There are English rules (the original are in Italian), and he is revising the English rules to make them even better. I like the rules because the armies tend to operate "historically," that is, according to the way they are described in historical accounts.

4/ Command and control as viewed from an ancient general's perspective, not the players.

I don't know what this really means. Wargaming is primarily a game that tries to get the "feel" right but I don't think there is any for it to avoid game mechanisms that focus on players.

As an aside, the strongest feature of Sword and Spear is that both players are fully engaged throughout the turn through the activation system. There is really no active and passive player in this game at any point. I wouldn't call the activation system random but one has to choose priorities.

And I might add that S&S encourage players to take poorer quality troops in way that Impetus, for instance, did not. Over the past couple of years I've had to add to my Impetus armies because, in that system, poor troops were really a liability and brought few benefits. Not in S&S.

There is no doubt that in S&S the dominant unit type is heavy infantry. High quality cavalry is tough but one really gets the sense of the importance of heavy infantry in this game. The difference between HI and MI is noticeable. Shooting overall is probably bit less powerful than in other games.

now the $64,000 USD question is can Aetheling" sell his gaming buds on trying these rules?

Legend of Doom

now the $64,000.00 USD USD question is can Aetheling" sell his gaming buds on trying these rules?

Got it in on…… :>)

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Marcus Brutus… I also kinda suspect the question is actually "I don't like WAB so what can I sell my clubmates who do?"..

However the challenge with that is that WAB is so much "of its time" that the only sets that are anything like it are W&C and the other "successor" WAB set, and literally everything else is approaching the period, the mechanics and the underlying design philosophy from an entirely different standpoint … such that asking "my mates like WAB, what other system can I sell them on?" becomes rather akin to asking "what type of apple can I suggest to eat to people who only like oranges?"

Some questions don't actually have real answers ..

madaxeman

Tim the question is actually less, "I don't like WAB so what can I sell my clubmates who do?" and more "why can't we use a much more satisfactory system for combats (think persistent "line of battle") like Swordpoint".

A system that owes a lot to WAB but has been changed to the point where it's almost unrecognisable= I do believe you host Swordpoint at Britcon every year now(?).

Or, maybe the question is, "Why not try Swordpoint and see how we get on?"

I do like WAB the game but not every week! LOL

I hope that all makes sense as I've just prized myself from between my bed sheets!

With respect,
Darrell

MY BLOG:
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Crusader Ancient rules by Crusader publishing. Has an interesting turn sequence.

Alala would tick quite a few boxes although technically its for Greek Warfare (but emminently tweakable for other periods)

another is WiPs On Bloody Ground

Both simple and enjoyable (which is 90% of the trick for me)

Tacticia one or 2?

Maybe try "No Dachi NO Dice" by Caliverbooks. Strange title as the rules use dice.