"In your opinion, when was the birth of ..." Topic

In your opinion, when was the birth of France?

1/ The baptism of Clovis?

2/ The year 843 AD because of the Treaty of Verdun with the establishment of Francia occidentalis?

3/ The year 1214 AD with the birth of national feeling after the battle of Bouvines?

4/ The year 1789 AD, as some think today because before 1789, for them it was not France?

Certainly before the revolution, change of government isn't the start of France as a nation

Certainly no later than the Treaty of Verdun. I'd be prepared to consider much earlier dates. The poor Franks were swallowed up by the Gauls in a way the Saxons, Angles and Jutes never were.

At the end of the hundred years war, when the English half joined the French half ? 1453 ?

I think the basis of modern France was in 507AD- The Battle of Vouillé: where Clovis defeated a Visigoth army under Alaric II, and conquered Gallia Aquitania.
In some ways, the development of Gaul could place it mid 5th Century BC. You pay your money and take your choice.
Most countries have a confused foundation date!

Its seems an evolution not a date. Remember, previously, the King was considered to be the 'first among equals'. I use the beginning of the 100 years as an example. The King could only ask for aid, not demand it.

Probably when Louis XIII and Riechleu began the foundations of the centralized 'Modern State. The reduction in power and authority among powerful fiefdoms and independent urban areas were severely curtailed. It was assisted by the sole possession of the more expensive types of military power -ie modern artillery.

The Revolution was as stated, a change of government. The national French identity was already in the people.
Clovis is an interesting choice.
However the Louis XIV is a very good option.

@14Boron
Certainly, before the revolution, but it was not a change of government that happened in 1789, but a change of regime.

It is the French extreme left which is currently very virulent today which believes that France was born in 1789…

But they do not say what it was before..?

@robert piepenbrink
Yes, the Franks were swallowed up by the Gallo-Romans who gradually managed to regain power "at home"…

@Dagwood
1453?

It's an idea like any other but this date was never mentioned.

@Herkybird
In 507 AD – The Battle of Vouillé about 8 or 9 years after the baptism of Clovis and yes most countries have a confusing founding date, for example I still don't know when the word "French" appeared?!

So you are in favor of the first proposition?

Historiography, based on the History of the Franks by Gregory of Tours, has long fixed this date at Christmas 496, after the battle of Tolbiac but it would rather be located in 498 or 499 according to the majority of historians, even if some lean towards a later conversion, in 505 or even 508…

But we must put into perspective the importance of the baptism of Clovis in the eyes of contemporaries.

First, the populations of Gaul were already mainly converted to Christianity by the middle of the 4th century (all the Gallic senators in Rome were Christians in 400).

Then, baptisms were done in the time of Clovis at Easter and not at Christmas.

Finally, declaring oneself a Christian by a profession of faith or before a court was sufficient to be so, baptism only becoming a rite consecrated by the Church in the middle of the sixth century.

You should also know that the baptismal font, a pipe of which was found in Reims, only allowed the simultaneous entry of three peoples.

The baptism of 3,000 Frankish warriors, concomitant with that of their king, is therefore legendary.

@CAPTAIN BEEFHEART
Of course this is an evolution and not a date.

As I wrote above, I still don't know when the word "Français"appeared?!

Maybe this is the best time?

@TimePortal

It's an idea like any other butthe reign of Louis XIV was never mentioned.

Louis XIV is an option for the birth of a modern state but I have never heard from anyone that France was born under his reign…

"Certainly before the revolution, change of government isn't the start of France as a nation"

Nation States are a very nineteenth century concept. Arguably, the French Revolution marked the point that "France" became such a thing, which is presumably the point the OP was making.

Obviously France existed as a geographical expression and dynastic concept before then.

I still don't know when the word "French" appeared

If its the name you want dated, 'Francia' was first used by the Franks under Clovis, it seems.
Later, the more Francified name 'France' appears in titles like Ile du France, which appeared in 1387.

I think this is the most likely origin. But I may be wrong!

@Martin Rapier
So when do you think his date of birth is?

@Herkybird
'Francia' was first used by the Franks under Clovis, it seems?

I would have thought under the Carolingians?

Ile de France,appeared in 1387, therefore the words France and Français or François as they called it in the Middle Ages certainly appeared before…

I'm going with Herkybird, Gaul wasn't a nation it was a collection of tribes, which is why the romans could defeat them in detail. Of course those of revolutionary bent say the people didn't see themselves as a nation, but that's to legitimise the revolution. Joan of Arc certainly appealed to French nationalism.

@Mark J Wilson
Ah yes and so in your opinion, when was the birth of France?

1/ The baptism of Clovis?

2/ The year 843 AD because of the Treaty of Verdun with the establishment of Francia occidentalis?

3/ The year 1214 AD with the birth of national feeling after the battle of Bouvines?

4/ The year 1789 AD, as some think today because before 1789, for them it was not France?

5) 507AD- The Battle of Vouillé