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"How to win in Ukraine: pour it on" Topic


18 Posts

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Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian23 May 2024 11:46 a.m. PST

…Russia has gained on the battlefield in recent weeks, but Ukraine's cause is far from hopeless. The United States and its allies can give Kyiv the training and technological advantage it needs, but the Biden administration has failed to provide the necessary U.S. military involvement for fears of Russia using nuclear weapons against Ukraine or taking action against U.S. forces. Such fears are overblown: such escalation would be dangerous and undesirable for Russia. The Biden administration should increase the intensity of its military activities and thereby enable a Ukrainian victory…

Defense One: link

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP23 May 2024 2:00 p.m. PST

While the current admin should have been more aggressive, Congress would not approve funding for Ukraine for months. This set the stage for the current situation. Hopefully, we have not waited too long.

Personal logo aegiscg47 Supporting Member of TMP23 May 2024 2:54 p.m. PST

Ukraine would have been better served if the U.S. had built a series of factories that churn out T-72s, Mig-29s, and other Russian equipment, which is what Ukraine knows how to use. There are just too many reports coming out about maintenance, training, etc., issues with Western equipment. Not to mention that as soon as they get shipments of artillery shells and air defense missiles they fire them off as quickly as possible, instead of conserving them for critical situations. The calls from France and now even the UK to intervene is probably due to NATO intelligence assessments showing that things aren't going well right now.

Personal logo Herkybird Supporting Member of TMP23 May 2024 3:13 p.m. PST

Not to mention that as soon as they get shipments of artillery shells and air defense missiles they fire them off as quickly as possible, instead of conserving them for critical situations.

This is an oversimplification of the real situation, I have seen several interviews with front line commanders who have been severely restricting ammunition to their units.
The biggest problem for Ukraine this year has been US Political infighting preventing aid coming in a predictable stream, the Russians saw it and took advantage.
Get over it guys! Good People are dying!

Bunkermeister Supporting Member of TMP23 May 2024 5:03 p.m. PST

"American strategy for the past 50 years has been to use enough force to kill people on both sides, but not enough to actually win."

Gordonalive is correct.

Don't lose in Korea.
Don't lose in Vietnam until we get tired of fighting and leave.
Don't win in Iraq because the Highway of Death seemed like we were being mean, stop fighting. How about the Falaise Pocket? Same thing, but we did not stop.
Afghanistan, we wanted to support people who hated us less than the people who hated us a lot and when it got too expensive we left in a hurry so the people who hate us a lot can take over.
NATO and the US have had the same problem, they want participation trophies but don't want to actually win.
Ukraine wants to fight and it is the same war in Israel, with the same two sides.
Western style democracy vs totalitarian Islam with Hamas and Iran, and Russia, China, and North Korea on the other side.
If we would have actually won the Korean War we would not be fighting proxy wars against them now at least.

Bunkermeister

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP23 May 2024 9:40 p.m. PST

As I have been posting here since this war started. The US leaders were dragging their feet to get the Ukraine all that they needed. To push the invading Russian off of their territory.

Again, the US leaders are risk adverse and fear escalation. It Didn't take long for Putin and others to see this. And take advantage of it.

And even with this US flawed concept, Ukraine is still fighting a pretty damn good war attriting the Russians. In large numbers with little gains to show for it.

Hopefully more US support will get there more quickly and in large numbers. Much of that should have been there a year ago or sooner.

The biggest problem for Ukraine this year has been US Political infighting preventing aid coming in a predictable stream,
That won't really stop until some major changes comes to the US border. As we have our own invasion with millions of illegal aliens flooding in.

Silurian24 May 2024 9:19 a.m. PST

By US leaders, I presume you mean mostly members of the Republican party who seem to oppose giving aid to Ukraine.

And why bring our border into the conversation? You know, as do Republicans who constantly throw up this argument (as an excuse), that the US has resources enough to deal with both issues. The border issue is more of political will than anything else.

Gray Bear24 May 2024 10:30 a.m. PST

Ukraine cannot and will not win this war. Until this is accepted by those supporting and funding hostilities, the destruction of infrastructure, property and lives on both sides will continue. In the end, it will be the Ukrainian people left holding the bag when the West decides, as it's recent track record indicates it will, it is time to walk away. Unless NATO stumbles into WW3 in the interim, this will be the end result. As someone once quipped,"It is dangerous to be the enemy of the United States but it is deadly to be her friend."

CFeicht24 May 2024 3:49 p.m. PST

Gray Bear +1

SBminisguy24 May 2024 3:50 p.m. PST

Gray Bear +1

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP24 May 2024 7:05 p.m. PST

The border issue is more of political will than anything else.
Save for the 10-12 million illegal aliens that have crossed the US border. Along with the drugs, sex traffickers, hardened criminals, etc., etc.

It is not a question of racism, xenophobia, etc., etc. It is about logistics and national security …

And why bring our border into the conversation? You know, as do Republicans who constantly throw up this argument (as an excuse), that the US has resources enough to deal with both issues.
Read what I already posted above. The open border will haunt the USA for many decades to come. No matter how many illegal aliens will be deported. There will be many that will never be brought to justice. Many continuing to be a burden on the US economically, etc., etc. Plus, they will have children, literally more mouths to feed, and everything else.

I wonder how many that support open borders, which is only a minority of Americans, how many will they take in, house, feed, provide medical and any other needs. For the 10,000 million plus illegal aliens. Which based on ICE's, CBP's, etc. numbers less that 10% actually qualify for asylum…

IMO this is the #1 problem that has to be dealt with because of failed US policy, etc.

Nothing to do with Ukraine directly … but it influences money that could be spent better. For other much more important priorities.

Ukraine cannot and will not win this war
It may come down to Russia gets to hold parts of Ukraine they occupy currently.

The Ukraine remains safe from being under Russia's boot. But yes, the Ukraine will lose a part of their nation. As with the Crimea a decade ago …

Russia may attack the rest of the Ukraine at a future date. Once they rebuild all their destroyed, captured, etc. AFVs, etc. But it may be a while to get enough bodies to fill the massive Russian losses.


Unless NATO stumbles into WW3
Highly unlikely, a very small possibility IMO … but the threat of it still has to be considered.

Nine pound round26 May 2024 6:44 a.m. PST

Such escalation would be dangerous and undesirable for the US.

Without in any way wanting the Russians to win, I don't want them to lose so badly that I'm willing to agree to a potentially escalatory military commitment. In the Cold War, we were cautious about these things, and with good reason.

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP26 May 2024 7:19 a.m. PST

I will risk a reply…It seems like the US has walked this Ukraine tightrope throughout. I have to agree with 9pd round…the balance of power matters.

If we had provided substantial military aid just before the invasion, Putin could have claimed we left him no choice and the whole thing was provoked by us. But by providing measured support thereafter, we gave Ukraine less chance to defeat the invasion. The US Congress then fell into a prolonged dysfunctional playground turf war. No help for Ukraine. Looks like the war will end in a draw of some sort now at best.

None of this had anything to do with the US border, which could have been addressed at the same time. For all the talk here about Biden looking for votes, I still think no one on the other side wanted the border addressed this year and risk losing a major campaign issue. Neither party has ever really made progress on this. They just take sides and @#$&* about it.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP26 May 2024 9:35 a.m. PST

Please do not say "the Ukraine ". That refers to a region, and implies that it is not a legitimate nation.
The proper term is Ukraine, without "the".
I stand corrected, thank you … 👍👍

Such escalation would be dangerous and undesirable for the US.
Yes it would, just like the US did not go into North Vietnam. But I think IMO, and I don't have all the intel, however more equipment sooner would have made a difference. As Ukraine's Forces are still fighting and killing many Russians. And even Mercs from China, Cuba, India, etc. They are not rolling over like the South Vietnamese and A'stan ANA & ANP. Ukraine's forces fight and best the Russians in almost all situations.

None of this had anything to do with the US border, which could have been addressed at the same time. For all the talk here about Biden looking for votes, I still think no one on the other side wanted the border addressed this year and risk losing a major campaign issue.
Very true but I can't forget that the US has its own invasion coming across our own open borders. And many know my feelings about the current US leadership … 'nuff said … OK back OT.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP26 May 2024 9:52 a.m. PST

Some very interesting intel from the front…

YouTube link

Nine pound round26 May 2024 12:45 p.m. PST

Nothing like starting the story with a detailed summary of your most recent bowel movements. Does make the raconteur seem authentic, though.

I remember reading somewhere that Soviet field kitchens were the single leading generator of casualties during the Afghan war, doesn't sound like they've improved much.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP28 May 2024 8:03 a.m. PST

I guess after seeing how the Russian leadership uses/treats its soldiers … Why waste much chow feeding them when most will be dead with a few weeks …or sooner.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP30 May 2024 8:43 a.m. PST

Russian staggeringly high losses …

link

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