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"Colors of artillery carriages." Topic


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561 hits since 18 May 2024
©1994-2024 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

hi EEE ya Supporting Member of TMP18 May 2024 3:12 a.m. PST

Hello everyone,

As for the German artillery in 1870-71, if the colors of the Prussian carriages are well shown on the internet, this is not the case for that of the Bavarian, Saxon, Württemberg cannon carriages in 1870-71 and even less so for those of the German states even smaller.

Written descriptions exist, but they are of no interest, what I need are photos from cannons from the current era in museums or old color illustrations.

No books on the subject?

bargainbindm Supporting Member of TMP18 May 2024 10:57 a.m. PST

This old Thread may be a bit of help:

TMP link

bargainbindm Supporting Member of TMP18 May 2024 11:01 a.m. PST

Also Robert Burke had made a quick list of the FPW carriage colors for what I think were all the combatants. I'll have to check on my other computer to see if i kept a copy.

hi EEE ya Supporting Member of TMP19 May 2024 1:58 a.m. PST

@bargainbindm
Thank you but we need a book with photos or color illustrations on the subject, otherwise we won't get out of it…

@bargainbindm.
Thank you but only photos or color illustrations on the subject will be of interest otherwise we won't get away with it…

bargainbindm Supporting Member of TMP19 May 2024 6:11 a.m. PST

I don't think what you are after exists, but I hope you find something Paskal!

GildasFacit Sponsoring Member of TMP19 May 2024 12:47 p.m. PST

How would you know that the museum pieces had not been repainted the wrong colour ? That happens more than you might think and it is rarely recorded when done.

I can appreciate that a written source may say 'grey' and that isn't adequate to match with a specific grey colour but, even as late as 1870, standardisation was less than perfect and colour variations must have existed.

Royal Navy colours are among the most carefully documented but variations due many factors made ships pictured side by side supposedly using the same scheme look different colours on photos as late as WW2.

hi EEE ya Supporting Member of TMP19 May 2024 10:58 p.m. PST

@bargainbindm
Me too I hope that I will find something, besides I have no choice otherwise what to do!?

@GildasFacit
You understood me ! In conclusion, can we do anything?

Mark Strachan20 May 2024 1:21 a.m. PST

The colours of the German equipment varied by state:


Prussia:- Mid-blue

Saxony and Hesse-Darmstadt:- Grey

Baden and Wurtemberg:- Olive Green

Bavaria:- Silver Grey


The barrels of the Krupp guns were chemically corroded and then rubbed with linseed oil to prevent further corrosion, so would have appeared dark brown. All other fitting were blackened steel.


I am afraid my source references are long since lost given that I researched the subject some 30 years ago, but I recall that they were reputable and corroborated.

Personal logo Old Contemptible Supporting Member of TMP20 May 2024 9:56 p.m. PST

I highly recommend Mark's Book "The Uniforms and Organizations of the Armies of The Franco-Prussian War" It's one of my go-to references when writing scenarios.

hi EEE ya Supporting Member of TMP21 May 2024 3:29 a.m. PST

@Mark Strachan
Thank you but I knew for decades that the colors of the mounts of German artillery pieces varied according to the States, because I too have done and still do research on the subject, but the descriptions do not suit me, for lack of anything better At a minimum, I want reliable color illustrations.

@Old Contemptible
What is in Mark's Book "The Uniforms and Organizations of the Armies of The Franco-Prussian War"?

Color illustrations of the gun carriages of all German states in 1870-71?

If yes please send me a link.

Robert Burke21 May 2024 5:06 p.m. PST

Here is a copy of the article that I wrote for MWAN many years ago:

ARTILLERY COLORS IN THE FRANCO-PRUSSIAN WAR
by Robert Burke

This article was originally published in MWAN.

The following chart shows the color of both the gun barrel and the gun carriage for the various states involved in the Franco-Prussian War.

Limber and Gun Carriage Gun Barrel

Baden Olive Green ???

Bavaria Grey-Blue ???

Brunswick Light Grey Bronze

France Bottle Green* Bronze

Hesse-Darmstadt Steel Grey Steel

Prussia Steel Grey Steel

Saxony Light Grey Steel

Wurttemberg Olive Green ???

* Bottle Green is a deep green with olive tones.

The gun barrels on the French Mitrailleuses were steel.

Mark Strachan states that the Prussian gun carriage was "middle blue". Stuart Sutherland states that the Prussian carriages and limbers were "light grey". However, Nigel Smith (the Historical Advisor for THEY DIED FOR GLORY) states that the Prussian gun carriages were steel grey (which may be the same color as light grey). Wargames Foundry's Painting Guide depicts the Prussian gun carriage and barrel as light grey. The Mecklenburg colors are the same as the Prussian colors.

The metal work on all the German guns was blackened steel. On the French guns the metal work was blackened bronze. Although I was unable to find information on the color of the gun barrels for Baden, Bavaria, and Wurttemberg, wargamers could probably paint their gun barrels steel since most of the German states had steel guns.

Lastly, if anyone has any questions about my Franco-Prussian rules, "They Died For Glory", they can contact me at burker1 (at) aol (dot) com.


Bibliography:
Smith, Nigel: "The Franco-Prussian War, Part 1, The French Army".
- "The Franco-Prussian War, Part 2, The German Armies".
Strachan, Mark G: "The Uniforms and Organizations of the Armies of the Franco-Prussian War".
Sutherland, Stuart: Series of articles on the Franco-Prussian War, Airfix Magazine, January 1977 through December 1977.
Wargames Foundry: "A Guide to Figure Painting".

Sadly, the article doesn't post very well. If anyone would like a Word copy of my article please feel free to contact me directly at burker1 (at) aol (dot) com.

hi EEE ya Supporting Member of TMP21 May 2024 11:50 p.m. PST

@Robert Burke
Yes the difficulties are not yet over and that there are still obstacles to overcome.

It a complicated situation and for me a problem that takes longer than expected to resolve so I continue to look for illustrations to get a more precise idea of ​​the thing.

Mark Strachan22 May 2024 1:40 a.m. PST

Old Contemptible! I am astonished you have a usable copy of my book (mine is falling apart)…it was 32 years ago that I wrote it and if it is still being sold anywhere I'm certainly not getting any royalties!

Paskal, I agree with bargainbindm and think you will struggle to achieve your goal and I concur with GildasFacit that museum pieces are unlikely to be true representations because they will probably gave been repainted or have even just faded over time. Add to that the fact that the colour accuracy of any photographs will depend on the the lighting, the camera, the quality of the colour printing and with digital photographs even the calibration of the screen you are viewing it on. Any contemporary illustrations will be affected every bit as much by the limitations of 19th century lithographic techniques as the whim of the artist.

That said, I have found two photographic examples that may be of some use to you:

First, on the url below is an image of a Prussian C64/67 in the State Museum at Köln. Is shows the trail in mid blue.

link

Second, the next url will allow you to download the book 'Kataloge des Bayerischen Armeemuseums Band 13' published in 2016 by the Bayerisches Armeemuseum and on page 212 is a colour photograph of a Bavarian M1866 Field Carriage mounting a C61 barrel (with breach removed). It shows the carriage in what could be olive, a brown tone, but certainly not grey. This may not be an 1870 photograph, but I would doubt if the colour changed between the wars.

PDF link

bargainbindm Supporting Member of TMP22 May 2024 6:57 a.m. PST

A nice catch on that second document Mark! I need to get that translated and read. Also, your blog has been my "go to" on my never ending 1866-1871 adventure. I have finally got all the pieces in place to game Nachod in two weeks, with Langensalza not to far behind. I would have been lost without your work on the subject. Thanks!………….Dave

hi EEE ya Supporting Member of TMP22 May 2024 11:01 p.m. PST

@Mark Strachan
Thank you but for the first link when you click on it the answer is: "This article does not exist", for the second link I don't think that the Bavarian gun carriages had these colors so I continue, the difficulties are not yet over and there are still obstacles to overcome.

@bargainbindm
If this is not a problem for you but for me it is a very complicated situation and a problem which takes longer than expected to resolve so I continue to look for illustrations to get a more precise idea of ​​the thing .

TimePortal24 May 2024 5:37 p.m. PST

I base my colors for 1860-72 on the Danish military museums sent to me which included booklets and numerous post cards. I posted some of these on my personal FB page since I cannot get them to work here.

hi EEE ya Supporting Member of TMP24 May 2024 11:16 p.m. PST

@TimePortal
I am not registered on any social networks and never will be and now the only forum I go to is TMP.

I keep looking and will eventually find one day because this is not the first time I find myself in this kind of situation.

I've noticed that I often find things when I'm no longer looking.

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