Deucey | 11 May 2024 10:09 a.m. PST |
How deep would the various types be? MenatArms Archers Billman Mounted men And (less importantly) how would they array relative to each other? I ask, because I'm curious how a 2mm army should be represented. (Man for man scale). |
MajorB | 11 May 2024 1:32 p.m. PST |
Troops on foot in 4 to 6 ranks. Mounted may be 2 or 3 ranks. |
aegiscg47 | 11 May 2024 2:19 p.m. PST |
Most formations seemed to have fought in what was called a "herce" (some spellings are herse), which was archers intermixed with bills as well as some men at arms. I've only been able to find a few references to it and none of them really explained what it was. Couple that with the fact that many formations were ad hoc in terms of their size and composition. On top of that, the various knights and lords would attach themselves to units at times in what can best be described as random assignments. Of course, for a war-game you need rules for various formations (unless you're doing skirmish level games), so there needs to be some way to designate formations. My 28mm armies are for Hail Caesar and most units are what are termed Household troops, which seemed to be the main unit raised by most lords. In Hail Caesar terms the unit consists of one or two stands of bill and men at arms with a standard and two stands of archers on the end of the unit. It works well and in game terms depicts the mix between archers and heavier troops fighting in the same unit. |
Dal Gavan | 11 May 2024 4:00 p.m. PST |
To add to aegiscg47's points, Deucy, base the figures with the archers and melee troops (men-at-arms and billmen) on separate bases. Have the most heavily-armoured figures in the front ranks, with some sergeants and lesser lords sprinkled in the rear ranks as "encouragement". Period maps of battles show the troops as deployed in quite deep blocks, which contradicts some/most of the battle descriptions. It's possible that means each command (the term used was "battle", which you probably know and which is confusing- so I'll use "command") may have had more than one "line" of melee troops. There's little known exactly how they fought in the WotR, but using the later phases of the 100YW as a guide the army would deploy in four commands with archers to the front and flank of each command. The archers on the flanks of the army may have been reinforced with troops from the reserve command. As the enemy got within melee range the archers would fall back to the flanks or behind the melee troops of each command. |
BillyNM | 11 May 2024 10:45 p.m. PST |
Dal Gavan, are there period maps of WotR battles? Please, can you point me at them. |
Dal Gavan | 11 May 2024 11:27 p.m. PST |
Dal Gavan, are there period maps of WotR battles? Sorry, Billy, a poor choice of words on my part, mate. I meant the late mediaeval period as a whole, not specifically the WotR. If there are any WotR specific period maps there may be a reference to it/them on the Lance and Longbow Society site. I can't remember seeing a map in the L&LS CD's, though. |
Sandinista | 12 May 2024 9:52 p.m. PST |
This, if you have not seen it already, from the Lead Adventure Forum is very useful link Ian |
Dal Gavan | 13 May 2024 5:48 a.m. PST |
Excellent link, Ian. Thanks. |
MajorB | 13 May 2024 2:06 p.m. PST |
My rule of thumb for the proportions of the various troop types is 45% archers, 45% billmen, 10% men-at-arms. The men-at-arms could theoretically be mounted on the battlefieid. |
Deucey | 13 May 2024 2:46 p.m. PST |
That is an interesting thread. But what is the "Arlequin's Blog" that is referenced? |
MajorB | 14 May 2024 8:42 a.m. PST |
But what is the "Arlequin's Blog" that is referenced? Sadly long gone. Though you might find it on the Wayback Machine archive.org |
Deucey | 14 May 2024 11:11 a.m. PST |
Did it have another name? |
Sandinista | 22 May 2024 10:14 p.m. PST |
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Deucey | 25 May 2024 7:53 p.m. PST |
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Trajanus | 12 Aug 2024 4:04 p.m. PST |
In Hail Caesar terms the unit consists of one or two stands of bill and men at arms with a standard and two stands of archers on the end of the unit. It works well and in game terms depicts the mix between archers and heavier troops fighting in the same unit. I have wondered what effect this has on overall representation. Obviously you can field complete units of archers but do people tend to shy away from doing so, in favour of the Households, who for the most part form the eye candy? Maybe not that important in a refight of 1st St Albans, or other smaller battles but at the other extreme there ought to be a good number of bows at Towton! 😀 Oh and yes, I know Henry VI, Buckingham and others managed to get themselves shot at St Albans but that's not really what I'm talking about! BTW: Is there any evidence to suggest archers from various Retainer units might have been grouped together on occasions? Just a thought. |
aegiscg47 | 16 Aug 2024 7:44 a.m. PST |
Trajanus, in Hail Caesar terms 50% of the army's units have to be household troops, but then you have options for heavy infantry, men at arms/dismounted knights, archers, arquebus, etc., which will give you a good representation of what was on a WOTR battlefield. Hail Caesar has the WOTR archers with an extra 2" of range over other archers in most eras and they are classed as Marksmen, which seems to work in the games that we have played. About the only thing the rules do not portray well is the "arrow storm" and archers basically running out of arrows and falling back. Other than Towton, where clearly there was a massive exchange of archery, no one really knows how long some of the archery duels lasted at the other battles, or what formations were used when moving up and then into contact. Trying to find out where some knights and lords fought and with which units is confusing at best as well. I've come to the conclusion that each gamer should pick a set of rules that they are comfortable with for the period and that simulates what they think the WOTR was! |
Trajanus | 16 Aug 2024 9:54 a.m. PST |
Just dug out my copy of HC 2nd Edition to educate myself. We play towards the other end of the books time frame so haven't spared much attention to how it handles matters past 1000AD! 🙂 Although I have had a personal interest in WOTR for decades. I think my mind has wandered away from the essential fact that HC doesn't have a figure scale – in keeping with many rules these days. 50% of units in a force representing say, 6,000 men (if refighting a smaller action) with a lot of small Households involved, would be easier to imagine in those terms. |