"Whig or Tory ?" Topic

Hello everyone,

On July 4, 1776, representatives of the colonies meeting in Philadelphia adopted the Declaration of Independence.

If you had lived at that time would you have been a Loyalist or a insurgent?

Tory, but then I am British so slightly biased?

I would definitely been a Whig – they correctly assessed the impossibility of successfully fighting a war in America to re-establish British sovereignty.

Patriot

The question comment seems to be different from the headline!

What's the difference between a Whig and a Tory?

Both the Whigs and Tories of Britain would have appalled at the shenanigans going on in the colonies. The question should be Revolutionary or Loyalist.

Patriot, just like my ancestors were.
See you at Yorktown, lobsterbacks. My ancestors did.

Patriot

Whig: Patriot, rebel

Tory: Loyalist

Aren't there Tory's and Whigs in England today?

Patriot.

(Loyalist or a "insurgent"?)

You mean "hapless minions of the overbearing colonial oppressors", instead of "Loyalist" THEN!

Insurgents Indeed! 😡

😉

Deucey – sort of.

Tory is a sort of slang term for a member of the Conservative Party. They are one of the two major parties in UK and are Centre Right. The word Tory has been used to describe Conservatives for a long time. It started out as an insult but today's Conservatives just use it as a shorter name.

Whig is a bit more complicated. It too started as an insult, but became the actual name of the Whig Party in the 18th Century. The Whigs morphed into the Liberal Party who then became the Liberal Democrats in the 1980s. The LibDems are a Centrist party and vie with the Scottish Nationalists to be the third largest party in Parliament.

What to do! what to do! Scottish born, but from an army family, raised as a monarchist. How do I decide?

I have some empathy for the Loyalists. Living in a world that essentially consisted only of monarchies, raised to believe the king was appointed by God (despite having potentially living memories of kings being deposed and executed in favor of other kings), and trusting in the King's government to make everything okay, and often relying on position and rank and income derived from the same… why would they embrace a radically new concept of government (compared to the history of the world) and give up the loyalties instilled in them from birth? I get that conflict, however much I reject it. They saw only the past. The Patriots saw a future.

"How do I decide?"
I believe d6's at dawn should steer you right.

@IanWillcocks
No because originally the insurgents were British.

Imagine yourself at the time.

@Herkybird
Were all the insurgents Whigs and all the loyalists Tories?

@ZULUPAUL
That is to say neither Whig nor Tory?

Imagine yourself British at the time.

@Deucey
What's the difference between a Whig and a Tory?

It's not my place to tell you that, I don't make politics about TMP.

Document yourself.

Aren't there Tories and Whigs in England today?

Read what Cerdic wrote.

@Shagnasty
Reread what I wrote at the top.

@Count Ignatief
Powdered.

@Parzival
Patriot, but wasn't the homeland of the rebels Great Britain before July 4, 1776?

You are a patriot who has some empathy for the Loyalists.

@RedJacket
For what homeland, because the British were also patriots.

@Grattan54
Whig: nice?

Tory: nasty?

@Choctaw
British Patriot?

@35thOVI
I mean those who were for and those who were against.

@Cerdic
Well explained.

@oldjarhead
At the time, someone in this situation would not have been able to choose, unless his family would have been close to him in the colonies.

@Stryderg
"How do I decide?"Imagining that you were alive at the time.

Well, my ancestors were German mercenaries so I guess whoever is the paymaster

Really hard to say. I'm a born rebellious sort, and drawn to underdogs, so there's "Whig." On the other hand, I don't feel there was enough legitimate grievance against the Crown to justify armed revolt, plus a sentimental attachment to Scotland makes it hard to fight Scots, even in red coats.

With hindsight and age,too, I've grown more and more into the uneasy feeling that the American Revolution has proven to be a big mistake. Playing the long game and being patient for evolving changes in governance might have paid off better and today we'd be more like Canada, and part of a prosperous and democratic British Commonwealth (British North America?) tied more closely with fellow English-speakers and our mutual inheritance in Common Law and heritage.

If the USA turns into a dictatorship in 2025, with a new horrible King instead of George III, my fears will have been confirmed. So, nowadays, I'm a Tory.

@Frederick
For what ?

Did some of them have to desert to join the insurgents?

@piper909
You're the born rebel type who doesn't want to rebel…

There were no legitimate grievances against the Crown?

It was not a question of fighting against Scotland and too bad for the Scots in red uniforms.

Did the American Revolution turn out to be a big mistake?

This is the first time I've read this somewhere.

What would the world have become without the United States and what would it become without them?

If the USA turns into a dictatorship in 2025, who will this horrible new king be?

Indeed, despite the existence of the United States and the American model, 70% of the world's population now lives under a dictatorship and only 8% of the world's population lives in a "total democracy"…

There are 330 countries in the world but the UN only recognizes 197.

Paskal: Sorry, I'm not going to be drawn into an endless debate over silly questions about obvious issues. (I see you attempting this in above posts.) I don't think you fully understand or appreciate the complex issues in this topic. You pose a simplistic Either/Or question to a very multifarious topic. I recognize the difficulties of historical "What If's…" and how futile it is, in the final analysis, to project modern attitudes and upbringing into past societies or eras. We are what we are, today.

@piper909
This kind of question is always interesting when you really like history.

But personally I will never write (or say) what I will do in situations in which I have never found myself, this prevents me from writing (or saying) big stupid things.

just a sort of aside question, but these representatives who met; i know by todays standards their election would be flawed, no women, slaves etc., but were they actually elected at all?

As an impartial observer ( I am descended from a convict and a Koori woman on my mums side and Irish on my dads side) my answer would be that it completely depends on who I was in the Americas. A landholder and producer I would side with the whigs, less control and taxes. An immigrant of non British background, probably whigs too, no loyalty to the crown. Then again some of the Germans may feel a little loyalty to the German monarch of Great Britain. As an everyday Joe I feel more attracted to being a rebel. No matter what the outcome of the AWI its ideals were as noble as the period allowed but has since become twisted a bit. If I was a slave then probably I would be loyalist because my master was or Whig because my owner was. The First Nations was totally dependant on their tribal decision but ultimately whoever they chose they got a raw deal in the end.

@Mark J Wilson
Yes currently only 8% of the world's population lives in a "total democracy"…

@Field Marshal
Yes it may depend entirely on who you would have been in the Americas, but not necessarily, not for everyone…

True @Paskal it's really not a simple question!

@Field Marshal
Yes alas it's really not a simple question!

@ Paskal, I was wondering about the 'representatives' in 1776.

@Mark J Wilson,
I too was wondering about the 'representatives' in 1776…
Did they have financial interests?

@ Paskal, they all appear to be upper-middle class, many of them owned plantations. They seem very similar to the people who fomented the English rebellion in 1642, upwardly mobile money, wanting a political say. I have to assume that form the lack of interventions to tell me about their elections that they were actually all pretty much self appointed.

@Mark J Wilson
Yes, money had to do with it because for the poorest, being British or American should not have changed much.