"France sends troops to Ukraine" Topic

France has now upped the stakes according to multiple sources. Why?

Subject: France sends combat troops to Ukraine battlefront – Asia Times


link

This won't end well.

"It's not really a war until the French get involved and the Italians switch sides…"

How is that not an act of war, if the report is true?

I've seen no other news source reporting this. The link to the original source cited in the article is no longer available. Not saying it isn't true but it's very easy to post fake news these days and even easier to believe.

I found 3 so far on the web. If it was only one, I would not have posted it. May be fake, always a possibility, but it has been hinted at by many sources for a week now.

We should know by tomorrow.

france24.com/en

One of my news sources. Not a word about it, except a "possibility."

Damon.

Also for clarification, when I wrote "post", I should have said "report" as I was referring to those that purport to be journalists (and not referring to TMP members posting news links).

Russia has already officially announced that any foreign troops in Ukraine will be regarded as an enemy and will be attacked. An exchange of blows will lead to a declaration of war.

Foreign troops can be in a nation at war for many reasons.
Combat is only the most obvious.
They could be training the Ukrainian troops, pretty likely I think. They may be performing maintenance of some kind of high tech gear, or they may be operating sensors, radars or other possibly classified French equipment they want to use in Ukraine but don't want to give to Ukraine.
They could be doing rear area security, helping with medical care, or any number of other tasks unrelated to specific ground combat.
In the Korean War the Soviet Union flew fighter jets in North Korean markings and engaged US troops in combat.
In the Vietnam War the Soviet Union operated almost the whole of the North Vietnamese air defense network for a long time, engaging US aircraft, until the Vietnamese got good enough at it that most of the Russians could go home.
But remember it only counts if Western nations do it, not Russia.

Bunkermeister

"They could be doing rear area security, helping with medical care, or any number of other tasks unrelated to specific ground combat."

Yes, they'll be deployed in rear areas, freeing up more Ukrainian troops for the front lines. I'm sure that will go down well… ;-)

In the Vietnam War the Soviet Union operated almost the whole of the North Vietnamese air defense network for a long time, engaging US aircraft, until the Vietnamese got good enough at it that most of the Russians could go home

For that matter, there was IIRC around total 320,000 Chinese troops in Vietnam (peaking at around 170,000), performing logistics, & may have included crews for AAA. So not only were Soviets shooting at Americans with intent to kill, but Chinese too. But neither the USSR nor China were attacked for these reasons.

Damon.

Hmm… The participation of Western military specialists in Ukraine has existed for a long time. This is confirmed, for example, by intercepted negotiations of the German military.
By the way, the Western press has already written more than once that British special forces and similar contingents from other countries are participating in special operations in Ukraine; extensive assistance is being provided in the guidance of missiles and other weapons, and the operation of Western weapons. I'm not even talking about the thousands of Western military specialists allegedly working under contract through private military companies.
Now we are talking about sending regular military units, which means open and full participation in the war. Even if it was to protect the rear of one of the warring parties.

How would you feel about the appearance of North Korean or Iranian regular military contingents on the Russian side?
Hello, World War III!

"Russia has already officially announced that any foreign troops in Ukraine" Does that include the Indians, Nepalese and other foreign troops that the Ruscum are employing?

Tally Ho!

I hope you understand that what you said was stupid? Or do you need to explain why?

link

YouTube link

link

link

If NATO countries voluntarily sends troops to Ukraine to either fight or assist in fighting (in any way shape or form) of course Russia has a right to attack them. I do not like Russia at all but in this it is only logical. If you are in Ukraine and support either side you are taking part in the conflict and can be attacked.

I have no problem with that.

Also that does not drag NATO into the conflict. If a NATO country sends troops to Ukraine, that country cannot claim that "they are attacked" and invoke the help of other NATO countries as they have VOLONTARILY sent troops to a war zone with the purpose to aid in the war.

NATO is a defensive organization and if you voluntarily send troops to fight you have forfeited the right to claim "self defense" or that you are attacked.

It is of course a slippery rope but what is not? Of course what happens if that countrys home soil is attacked?

Lets say France sends troops to Ukraine and those troops participate in combat. French soldiers die. I have no problem with that. It does not involve NATO. But lets say Russia targets Bordeaux with a missile strike? Can they claim that NATO should enter the war?

"If NATO countries voluntarily sends troops to Ukraine to either fight or assist in fighting (in any way shape or form) of course Russia has a right to attack them. I do not like Russia at all but in this it is only logical. If you are in Ukraine and support either side you are taking part in the conflict and can be attacked."

You forget that Russia illegally invaded Ukraine. Attacking troops that help Ukraine is therefore also (still) illegal. Russia cannot ever claim a right to attack them. If, however, another nationality attacks Russia on Russian ground (not Donbas and Crimea for instance) thén Russia would be in her right to defend herself.

@Murphy- That was harsh. Accurate to be sure, but harsh.

I have found only one new source this morning on this story. Nothing on morning news. If nothing by tomorrow, I will have Bill kill this thread. My apologies, I was unfamiliar with the "Asia Times"

The ruscum are employing plenty of foreign fighters and using weapons from N Korea and Iran in the illegal invasion of another country. (likely so the cosmopolitan ruscum from the major cities do not have to provide manpower).

Yet they get all upset that anyone wants to help the Ukrainians.

Tally Ho!

We can debate the legality of individual NATO countries sending troops to Ukraine and if a Russian attack on those countries would trigger Article 5. The issue is how does Russia view such an event? Russia keeps referring to NATO collectively as "The West". How many more NATO countries would have to send troops before Russia decides it is at war with "The West". I don't believe the Russians see NATO as a defense pact. The worst case scenario the Russians launch preemptive nuclear strike.

I think France's president may be just saber rattling a bit. But I'm sure the French Military already has an OPLAN for this deployment, well … I hope.

And IF the French send troops, etc. to Ukraine. I don't think it would trigger NATO Art 5. As I believe was already mentioned. As long as e.g. the French don't invade Russia but stayed in the Ukraine. And kill Russians operating along with the Ukrainian Forces. To push the Russian invaders off the Ukraine's territory. Russian really can't complain but they may send a harshly worded email to the UN.

"If NATO countries voluntarily sends troops to Ukraine to either fight or assist in fighting (in any way shape or form) of course Russia has a right to attack them.

The question is with what ? 50% of the Russian Military is gone. The Black Sea fleet – 1/3 of it is "drinking water".

Plus, if I heard this correctly, just reported on CNN that the Poles plan to become a much larger much more powerful military. They don't want the Russians to try to mess with them ever again.

As well as the NATO nations that border Russia have spent more than 2% of their GDP as required by NATO. Seems the NATO members that used be part of the WP. Again, don't want to risk not being prepared if Russia attacks.

And as we know, Putin's imperialism made two nations that border Russia to join NATO. I don't think he/they saw that coming. So, if you look at how this conflict is playing out. Putin/Russia again has lost 50% of their combat power. Plus, again 1/3 of the Black Sea Fleet "sleeps with the fishes". A good example of unintended consequences.

I still have not seen this report corroborated. Just the Asia Times article and a bunch of tweets quoting that same article.

Still it makes for interesting hypothetical wargaming scenarios and I presume that's what we are all here to do…talk wargaming.

"And IF the French send troops, etc. to Ukraine. I don't think it would trigger NATO Art 5"-Legion4

No it would not, but if the Russians retaliated directly against France would it? My statement has always been about the Russian response to such an event. You are right about Russian conventional military being incapable of attacking NATO. The only way Russia could pull this off would be a nuclear first strike.

Hypothetical scenario #1…

1. France sends troops to Ukraine

2. Russia attacks France and only France in retaliation.

3. France invokes Article 5 since they are now under attack.

Hypothetical scenario #2

1. France sends troops to Ukraine

2. Russia attacks all of NATO with nuclear first strike since it does not differentiate between what individual member states of NATO do.

3. Article 5 is now invoked because France poked the bear and dragged everyone else in…

If your the Asia Times and want to increase traffic for Ad revenue……

Yeah click bait, nothing more.

If there are French troops it will be liaison and training, nothing more, and its a fairly big if.

Critics of the West's support of Ukraine, Russia aside, might do better if they didn't just use Kremlin talking points and out right lies from the internet. One only has scratch the surface to find a whole raft of fantastical claims about the activities of NATO troops in Ukraine and the huge numbers Russia has killed… Personally I think Russian's may have been dragged so far down that rabbit hole that if a NATO country actually intervened in a limited manner on the battlefield Putin might actually find it hard to use it as an escalation, at least internally.

Or… We could give ever country bordering Russia the know how to produce their own nukes. With medium range intercontinental tech. Just saying!

"Boom goes London, boom Paree,
More room for you, and more room for me…"

If your the Asia Times and want to increase traffic for Ad revenue……

touché coulé

indeed, Micron has only repeated something he had previously said, that he doesn't exclude nothing given the other side has no limits, that's all,
nothing new under the sun,

we are not on the eve of the imminent landing of French troops in Ukraine for the third time in 170 years contrary that suggests the title of the thread

Lets say France sends troops to Ukraine and those troops participate in combat. French soldiers die. I have no problem with that. It does not involve NATO. But lets say Russia targets Bordeaux with a missile strike? Can they claim that NATO should enter the war?

a small bomber squadron with particular weapons can resolve all that very quickly without US or the rest of Europe, I have no problem either that France leaves NATO/OTAN to recover her full independance and let Europe under his dear US protectorate, fed up to be very curiously associated with the blames directed to childish Europe always needing the US godfather, including according to some US members here claiming that they are very very very connoisseurs of European affairs who explain that France also asked to the US that they should come to die for Ukraine (sic!) that is the fourth dimension
Berlin is not the capital of Europe and Brussels where the NATO HQ was fortunately displaced from Fontainebleau 57 years ago is not the capital of France either nor his spokesperson nor his spiritual adviser,
I think that NATO can erect a monument in Brussels to Putin for the greatest help he gave to such organisation

France deciding to assign the 3e REI is an interesting choice.

From what I have read the 3e REI is currently deployed in French Guiana, specialized in jungle warfare and is tasked with protecting European Space Agency facilities.

Just read about the French sending troops, said they would eventually have 1500 in country. The FFL are always a good unit to send, like at Kolwezi in '78, IIRC. They are known for getting the job done. The 3e REI has a very good record in combat. Like all of the FFL units do generally. The Russians may have a surprise if they try to engage the FFL. The Russia Infantry is marginal at best. The FFL has some of best troops on the planet.

320,000 Chinese troops in Vietnam

The Green Beret raid on Son Tay in North Vietnam in '70 IIRC. Reports were mostly Chinese troops were there and most if not all killed by the US SF troops

No it would not, but if the Russians retaliated directly against France would it?

If the French deploy on their own. Not being part of a NATO operation. If the Russians attacked them in Ukraine that wouldn't trigger Art.5, AFAIK.

It's funny… Do you seriously think that French soldiers will shoot at Russian soldiers on the territory of Ukraine, but as soon as they leave its borders, they will all immediately become neutrals, not paying attention to each other? What naivety…
What if the French start being shot at in Africa? To start…
It's called "opening Pandora's box." It will become extremely difficult to stop the process that has begun.

Cuprum I don't believe Russia would ignore France outside of Ukraine, and my concern is always been how Russia would perceive the event.

Would France (or any other country) ignore it if Russian regular forces entered into confrontation against them, and even under their own flag (that is, officially), on the side of a third state? I think the answer is obvious.
The UN Charter has long described what a peacekeeping mission is and what procedures are used to formalize it. Everything else is war.

I don't believe this report as accurate – as has been pointed out no other sources have picked it up.

Macron's argument is just that we shouldn't rule out sending troops to Ukraine, if their army collapsed and otherwise the Russians would overrun the whole country. Mainly this seems to be to create a bit of uncertainty on the Russian side – 'don't be so sure you can act with impunity and we will never act'. Whether it is actually a real intention is much more questionable.

If it were to happen then obviously that likely puts those troops in direct combat with Russians – an extremely dangerous and undesirable outcome, I think. However, there is a direct precedent – China intervening in the Korean War when North Korea faced defeat. Despite MacArthur's wishes, that didn't lead to fighting outside of Korea. Presumably both sides recognised the risks if that had happened.

"I don't believe this report as accurate – as has been pointed out no other sources have picked it up."

Actually not true, each day I find more sources, but not major sources. Maybe someone else has found a major source. Google is such a worthless search engine and requires rewriting the same search multiple ways and then only returns a few new ones and seems to want to bring up articles that relate to their views. DUCKDUCKGO has gotten almost as useless.

So is the story true? Still hard to say yet.

Cuprum2, actually that is exactly what the US did on at least 2 occasions. Russian pilots in both Korea and Vietnam. France may be going on that fact that these are the Legion and not technically "French" soldiers. Article 5 should not cover this if they die. Also if true and for some horrible reason Russia retaliated against France, IMO article 5 should not pertain, as France took the offensive first. I know many would not agree with that, but again my opinion.

Again if true and the Legion is there, I believe it is a ridiculous escalation and may have to do with what has been happening in Africa.

The thread is turning in a complete delirium and what if based from a fake new or at the very best from a sensationnalist title about France given by an Asian newspapers and passed by the prismus of some anglosphere forum and US vision totally far from French realities as usual
there are no French troops sent to Ukraine until now
there are no French troops prepared to be sent to Ukraine, and Ukraine never asked that

what it is such nonsense story with the "3e REI" and why not the 9e RIMa?!
Sure that both units of Guyane trained in jungle warfare by the Brazilians will be a good choice for the Ukrainian theater while I assume the Alpine Chasseurs French elite units specialized in winter and mountain warfare already sent in Roumania would be certainly sent to replace them in Amazonia, nonsense

the Foreign Legion, ppppffff!
what else for such called-expeditionnary force? The Cavalry and Infantry Regiments of Republican Guard? The Zouaves? The Grenadiers of Imperial Guard? the Mousquetaires du Roi??

We're in cloud cuckoo land in this thread, be serious

French troops in Ukraine where??
Learn french or use french serious sources
usual well-informed sources and datas on-line about French military :
link
opex360.com
among last news the US and Russians living together in Niger

Lilian, we do not know for sure this has happened. No major sources have reported it, but:

The "Asia Times" according to the "Rasmussen report"

"LEAST BIASED

These sources have minimal bias and use very few loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by appealing to emotion or stereotypes). The reporting is factual and usually sourced. These are the most credible media sources. See all Least Biased Sources.

Overall, we rate Asia Times as least biased through proper sourcing and story selection. However, we rate them as Mostly Factual rather than High due to censorship issues from the Chinese Government.
Detailed Report

Bias Rating: LEAST BIASED
Factual Reporting: MOSTLY FACTUAL
Country: Hong Kong
MBFC's Country Freedom Rank: LIMITED FREEDOM
Media Type: Newspaper
Traffic/Popularity: Medium Traffic
MBFC Credibility Rating: MEDIUM CREDIBILITY"

I have also read it in at least 7 other sources. Indian, Polish, African, substack, Russian associated, and YouTube. Many of those questionable. So I'm not saying it has happened yet. But Macron has "Talked the talk" and specifically mentioned the Legion exactly. So a very real possibility.

And:

Subject: Kremlin says nuclear weapon drills are Russia's response to West's statements


link

Again his "talking the talk"

Is this a French source?

Subject: Macron reaffirms possibility of sending troops to Ukraine


link

Also

Subject: Macron hints at Foreign Legion's potential deployment to Ukraine


link

Again I'm not saying it has happened, but multiple non-major sources are and normally where there is smoke, there is "usually" fire.

I hope it's NOT TRUE.

So we should understand that this rumor of the FFL going to Ukraine is false/fake news at this time …

It is understood that many stories in the media are meant to sell papers, get people to watch that news program, etc.

Lilian – the FFL has been aromatized by the media for a long time. I have read a number of books, articles, etc. on them over the years. Including Fall's "Street Without Joy" and "Hell In A Very Small Place". As I said generally based on history the FFL is known for getting the job done.

FWIW – Being a former US Army Infantry Officer and like many here a student of history, vaunted units like the FFL provoke a lot of interest, etc. E.g. like the Army Rangers, Green Berets, 82d, 101, UK Commandos, RMC, Paras, etc., etc.

Having studied the French Indochine War, like many here. Many French units there as well in WWII performed very well.

I briefly work with an Officer from IIRC the 1e REI at Army Combined Arms School in Ft. Leavenworth, KS. He was very helpful. And even met a couple of Officers from the 2e REP at Benning, GA. At an event or two.

Otherwise, everything else I know about the FFL is from reading/studying information from various sources, etc. …

Viva' le France' !

But Macron has "Talked the talk" and specifically mentioned the Legion exactly

(…)
from "essanews"
The Foreign Legion in Donbas?
Stephen Bryen, a former Deputy Secretary of Defense for the US under President Ronald Reagan, claimed on the "Asia Times" website that France dispatched approximately 100 soldiers from the 3rd Foreign Legion Infantry Regiment to Sloviansk in eastern Ukraine. He suggests they are there to assist the Ukrainian army in repelling the Russian offensive in Donbas.

such sentence demostrates for me all the lack of reliability of the data and source, and total ignorance of French Army organization and realities and disqualify the source
as said, curiously why the Legion? headed by Jean-Claude Vandamme? Why not the Senegalese Tirailleurs, 100 jungle and borders patrollers of 3e REI from Guyane in the Donbas!
all that while France had Special Forces for this kind of operations

this looks like nothing more than usual disinformation Made in Russia,

Macron is preparing the French (and alerting European) public opinion, and for that has just repeated what he had previously said in the event that Ukraine would collapse that he doesn't exclude nothing, so nothing new under the sun of the Elysée, as France after Britain seems the particular target for the Kremlin for several months, we don't say either that this will never happen, but today it is still a fake new

there are European elections the next 9th june, despite something very secondary especially in France, it is not the moment for Macron to sent French troops in Ukraine, French people support Ukraine but fully disagree to see any direct commitment of the French Army in Ukraine

"said, curiously why the Legion?"

I could say, why not?

But…. I would assume because for exactly the reason: "They are not French citizens". He would be playing with technicalities. "I sent troops, but not French citizens".

Again I hope this is NOT TRUE.

In Korea, Soviet pilots fought unofficially. Their planes carried the symbols of the DPRK aviation; they themselves wore Chinese uniforms and had documents of Chinese citizens. The airfields from which the Soviet pilots operated were located in China. That is, officially the USSR troops did not take part in the conflict.
China also sent a "volunteer" corps to the Korean War. That is, China did not officially enter the war with the United States. Of course, this "trick" was obvious, but both sides preferred to pretend that all this was true. Although the American Air Force carried out attacks both on the territory of China and on the territory of the USSR.

The Foreign Legion is not a private company. This is part of the French armed forces, with all the ensuing consequences.

As for Macron's statements, I think this is an attempt to return France to some kind of European leadership, which has been shaken many times recently (the story with submarines, failures in Africa, an unsuccessful attempt to establish a dialogue with Russia). And of course, an attempt to scare Russia with possible consequences. But it may very well be that such rhetoric will not strengthen European unity, but will undermine it. It's a dangerous game. If you took out a pistol, you may be forced to shoot against your own will.

as said the 3e REI is only a jungle and borders patrolling unit in Guyane, there is no reason to sent a such unit "in the Donbas" other than the overmythification around the Foreign Legion abroad few days after the 30th april Camerone Day
only russian disinformation and it is not the first time here, remember the extermination of a huge number of so-called French volunteers by the Russian sometimes ago with an impressive list of French names of guys supposed to be killed and being alive in France

someone who has basic notions about the French Army would know that rather than the mythified "Foreign Legion" the units would be chosen among the 7 combat brigades or the Special Forces based in metropolitan France prepared for an European theater of war, the foreign regts among such brigades are mixed with others units and would intervene with them, and not especifically alone as "foreign legion" brigade

Ahh but Caprum2 we know the pilots and Chinese troops were really not a private company, nor volunteers. 😉

Again the Legion are not French citizens. Everyone is playing with plausible deniability, that everyone knows is not true. IF the legion is there, or partially there, or on its way.

Lilian, maybe they wanted to be there by "Cinco de Mayo". 😉

Subject: France denies sending troops to Ukraine, dismisses ongoing Russian disinformation campaign


link

In Korea, Soviet pilots fought unofficially. Their planes carried the symbols of the DPRK aviation; they themselves wore Chinese uniforms and had documents of Chinese citizens. The airfields from which the Soviet pilots operated were located in China. That is, officially the USSR troops did not take part in the conflict.

Yes, that was known then by US/UN intel assets. And some Russians did die. As did many Chinese in Vietnam during the US conflict there.

as said the 3e REI is only a jungle and borders patrolling unit in Guyane, there is no reason to sent a such unit "in the Donbas"

Yes many here know that … but we are not privy to how the French Leaders make decisions, of course. FWIW, my experience in the 101. Our Bde had units each trained in specific environs. My Bn was Jungle, others Winter and Desert.

the units would be chosen among the 7 combat brigades or the Special Forces based in metropolitan France

Yes "Task Organizing" is also what the US Army does when units deploy, etc. At times our Bn in the 101 had Rangers, or Armor Cav or Armor attached. In the ROK my Bn/Bde at times had USMC units attached, and ROK Infantry, etc. as well.

35thOVI, French units of the Legion of French Volunteers and then an SS brigade fought against the USSR in World War II. Moreover, the Legion fought under the French banner and was welcomed by French President Pétain. Did France fight against the USSR?

The Spanish "Blue Division" fought against the USSR – did Spain fight against the USSR?

This is all a complex issue and it depends not only on who is sending the troops, but also on who they are fighting against…

It is strange to accuse Russia of disinformation when the French President spoke about it publicly.

French units of the Legion of French Volunteers and then an SS brigade fought against the USSR in World War II. Moreover, the Legion fought under the French banner and was welcomed by French President Pétain. Did France fight against the USSR?

certainly not given that such unit was only the foreign GERMAN "infanterie-regiment 638" (counting numerous exiled white russians) and "33rd Waffen SS" of the GERMAN ARMY,
that French State and FRENCH ARMY had nothing to do with that and even Pétain's neutral policy didn't want to hear or to be associated about such unit nor even Berlin would admit, never Pétain nor the French State was associated with the creation of such unit sounding for him like an insult to his authority and sovereignity over France
and even more : Vichy had especifically initially MUCH BETTER relationships with Moscou contrary than previous French democratic 3rd Republic who considered Russia as ennemy, being ally to Nazi Germany against France and having invaded Poland with their german allies, and so France also prepared several operations against Russia, raised a FRENCH ARMY's expeditionary force with Alpine Chasseurs to be sent in Finland as well as air operations against Caucacus and raised even a Georgian Legion, a French Bomber squadron sent to Finland was stopped in Britain by the armistice in Finland, only a vanguard of a military mission with artillerymen and medical reached the country at that moment
so it was thanks to Finland's collapse and british reluctance that FRENCH ARMY didn't open the fire against the Red Army in 1940 allied to our german ennemies, period considered as the first period of true cold/hot war between two countries on the verge of an open war before june 1940

after june 1940 France was certainly not at that time at war against Russia despite there were 120 000 Russians under german uniforms occupying France, waiting in whole Divisions regiments and battalions the US Army in Normandy (maybe why Putin was invited there given the impressive number of russian battalions along the french coast) or the French Army in Provence or participating in operations against the Maquis as in my region where we nicknamed the "Mongols Hordes" across France given their behaviour towards french civilians, men that the soviet commissaries came quickly few days after the Liberation to search and find until the last of them even within the foreign legion like the Ukrainians

The Spanish "Blue Division" fought against the USSR – did Spain fight against the USSR?

yes and it was considered as such by both sides until 1977 because the Division Azul, even under german uniform as 250th german division, had nothing to do with the previous French State case adopting a neutralist policy since the Armistice of june 1940 and can't be associated with the mentionned german units

on the contrary the Spanish State was directly envolved in such Division and considered that Spain was not neutral but "at war against Soviet Union since 1936"
best proof is that US and UK needed to put pressures directly to Spain to obtain the withdrawal of his Division on the eastern front in 1944, demostrating the particular case and status of the spanish division in comparison to others WWII german foreign legions, it was a camoufled participation of Spain in the Eastern front and WWII, something like the Russian state with Wagner or Africa Corps in african armies or the Austro-Hungarian-Polish Legion in Mexico or european legions in Carlist Wars