"Confederate or federal ?" Topic

Never knew that Canadians fought for the Union.

Prefer Union, but playing Confederates gives us a chance to put on outrageous southern accents.

Lilian

"Abroad at that time the Union Federal Army was perceived as an army of foreigners and emigrants from Europe"

I guess the press was bad even back then. The armies were not majoritively foreigners or emigrants, unless we go by the concept that all in the US were emigrants.

Why were they willing to come to the U.S. in the middle of a war? One word. Opportunity. The Homestead Act was signed in 1862. Even before that obtaining farmland in America was relatively easier than in Europe. The Homestead Act tipped things further. The California gold rush was followed by other gold and silver strikes in the west. Then when we look at the appalling living and working conditions in mid to late 19th century U.S. we tend to forget at the time the perception was for those immigrants things were still better here than they were back home. Whether they were is another debate.

but playing Confederates gives us a chance to put on outrageous southern accents.

Would that be outrageous Modern Southern accents or outrageous Civil War era Southern accents? And if so which one? If you don't get the second question watch early Andy Griffith Shows.

Being a Alabama man from the rural areas, there are folks down here that I cannot understand. And I am not talking about the Condo invaders from the north.
I had to explain to my 90 year old mother what the Cajun was saying on TV. It was triple hook not treble hook. Some areas of East Tennessee is tough to har too. Lol.

@ScottWashburn
"General Lee, I no longer have a division."

@35thOVI
I don't think they knew that they were going to find themselves in a country at war. And not being Americans they were not obliged to serve…

Moreover, immigrants arrive in the U.S.A. not on the territory of the Confederation which could not have welcomed them if they had not served.

How long did it take to officially become American when you emigrated to the U.S.A. at that time?

@Lilian
hi EEE' ya!

@TimePortal
Me too and if most of them are descendants of loyalists, they should have fought against…

Being a rural Alabama man, you will agree that Cajun is a wonderful language.

@Nick Stern
This question is not about wargames…

@Bill N
I'm not American so please explain to me what these scandalous modern southern accents and these scandalous civil war era southern accents are?

Ironically Paskal, the eastern counties of Alabama were filled with Loyalists, mainly Scot. The rich loyalist bought passage to Jamaica and Canada. Poor Scots moved west from SC, Florida and GA. The largest letter in their county phone book,is a special Mc section. Lol.

@TimePortal
I thought all the Loyalists had become Canadian. LOL.

The vast majority of Loyalists remained in the new United States. I had a friend who did a family history back to find they were loyalists in the Revolution. Then, later, fought for the Confederacy. They just couldn't back a winner.

I'll happily play either side. It's history. Both sides believed in what they fought for and it's late in the day to get partisan now about the 1860s, innit?

@Grattan54
Loyalists to the Revolution, then for the Confederation, it is the law of series.

@piper909
Precisely since it's history, I always choose my sides for historical reasons.

Piper909 +1, that more had that belief.

"The vast majority of Loyalists remained in the new United States. I had a friend who did a family history back to find they were loyalists in the Revolution. Then, later, fought for the Confederacy. They just couldn't back a winner."

Yes, I think whose side they fought for, would have been determined by what state they lived in when the war took place. 🙂

@Grattan54-How do we define "loyalist"? In Virginia the loyalist tag was slapped on people who opposed being drafted. Elsewhere the term was slapped on people who were willing to do business with the British. (If you are a farmer are you really a loyalist because you'd prefer to sell your wheat for British gold rather than Continental script.) Then in the South you had people jumping from one camp to the other depending on who was dominant at any particular time.

@35thOVI
No, whatever the facts, it is never too late to approve them or not.

Whether the majority fought was determined by the state they were living in at the time of the war, they must not have been overly motivated…

Which state paid its volunteers the best?

@Bill N
A loyalist who in 1776 wanted to remain British…

No ?

Paskal, it's history today. The decisions were made by those who lived in the time. Making decisions today, you are exempt from the pressures of your friends, families, home state, morals and political thoughts of the time.

Don't believe me? Well let us say you support Israel's right to exist. Then grab an Israeli flag, put on a yarmulke, walk into the crowd of pro Hamas protestors by yourself, at let us say UCLA or elsewhere and wave the flag and scream for the rights of Israel to exist. Then you would have an idea of what it would have been like to live in South Carolina and oppose those who were pro slavery and pro leaving the Union. Well except for today you probably would still have a better chance of leaving without permanent physical damage. Also today you would not have to give up your friends, family, home.. etc. that the pro Union anti slavery person in South Carolina had to deal with. Lastly once war broke out, you risked your life for those beliefs.

Still don't believe me. Then take that flag and yarmulke and let us drop you off in Rafah and express your pro Israeli views. Than you would have a real idea.

So today, too easy to make the decisions as what you would have done. Arm Chair general decisions.

Union – on land, reason to quote Sellar and Yateman on the English Civil War "Right but Repulsive" where as the Confederates are "Wrong but Romantic."

Naval, I really don't mind.

Reenactment – Union and union only – Battery I, 1st US Artillery.

God Lord what a long thread. Gaming wise I don't care that much. I like playing the south, that way IF I lose, I can just say "well what did you expect" and if I win, I can brag about how much better I did then expected!! Kinda like taking the trash troops or the losing side in other games:):) Like Russian militia in a Nappy game:):)
I do find it ironic that the south is referred to as traitors by the north, since at one time the British would have called all of us traitors….so kinda like saying…how dare you do what me and my parents did. Anyway, don't read too much into it. We just talking gaming, right?????

@35thOVI
Yes, well what is your Arm Chair general decisions?

@138SquadronRAF
Was the co-federation romantic?

@gamer1
I too find it ironic that the South is called traitor by the North, because on July 4, 1776, the British would have called them all traitors…

Paskal gave you my answer earlier. 😉

But… I would probably have been influenced by family, friends and the beliefs of my community and state. As were most people back then. So if I lived in Indiana, Illinois or Iowa as most of my family did, I would more than likely have fought for the Union, as they did….

But if I had lived in North Carolina or Texas as a few of my cousins did back then, I would probably have been a Confederate.. as they were.

People are products of their times.

My ancestors fought the British during the Revolutionary war in both the Carolinas and New England, so I can assume I would have been a Colonial. It is a valid assumption, just like the above.

Haven't played a ACW game in decades,well except Gettysburg with alternative armies, but I am a Yankee at heart.
As on other thread I would play Confederates but Federals if option was open.

14Bore, I interpreted this as "whose side would you be on in the real war". If it is wargaming, it matters not to me, I play either.

@35thOVI
And without being influenced who would you have been for?

Yes the question is "whose side would you be on in the real war".

It's not about wargames.

@14Bore
A Yankee at heart!

You have du "franc-parler"!

The question is "whose side would you be on in the real war".

It's not about wargames.

But that's what a Yankee at heart is like!

Union, both for the politics and that my GG grandfather enlisted twice in NY volunteers – the first time right after he had emigrated from Alsace -Loraine.

I thought you were just talking gaming. I would think no one in hindsight would support continuing the institution of slavery and would fight with the north. I do think there is a point that it may come down to where you and your family are living at the time and what influence that could play.
I think at that time most of my family was in west virgina before moving out to Kansas. I remember my grandfather always joked the family settled in Kansas because they were on their way to California and just couldn't go any further:)

" And without being influenced who would you have been for?"

🙂 Paskal, again people are a product of their times. If I was born back then, I would be a product of the influences of my family, friends, community, state and religious beliefs. More so then, than now, as the majority were from farming families and did not get far from home. If I had lived in Ohio, 95% chance I would have fought for the Union. I am not back there with the morals and influences of today.

So if I asked: who would you fight for in the 30 Years war? Me of today would say neither one, they were all religious bigots. But if I was born and lived in a German protestant country back then, I would have probably been happy to run my pike into the belly of a kneeling Papist Pig. Likewise, if I had been born into a Catholic German country, I would probably have been thrilled to cut the throat of a heretic protestant dog.

@COL Scott ret
France, see you soon! because holy hope
Fill our hearts saying to you: Farewell!
Waiting for delivery time.

For the future… we will pray to God.
Our monuments where their banner flies
They seem to mourn your flag.

France, do you hear the last prayer
Of your children lying in their tomb?

You will not have Alsace and Lorraine,
And despite you we will remain French;
You were able to Germanize the plain,
But you will never have our heart.

What! our sons would leave their cottage
And your regiments would go and swell!

To slaughter France, our mother,
You would arm the arms of his children!

Ah! you can entrust them with weapons,
It is against you that they will serve them,
The day when, tired of seeing our tears flow,
To avenge us their arms will rise.

You will not have Alsace and Lorraine,
And despite you we will remain French;
You were able to Germanize the plain,
But you will never have our heart.

Ah! until the day when, tricolor flag,
You will float on our exiled walls,
Brother, let's stifle the hatred that devours
And makes our disconsolate hearts leap.

But the great day when France was bruised
Will reform its new battalions,
To the saving cry of the Fatherland,
Men, children, women we will answer:

You will not have Alsace and Lorraine,
And despite you we will remain French;
You were able to Germanize the plain,
But you will never have our heart.

Listen and read this video:

link

@gamer1
You thought I was just talking about games.

No, if I got interested in figurines it's because of my passion for history, otherwise I might as well play marbles…

It is true that even at this period the maintenance of the institution of slavery was a big moral problem.

And yes most of the choices depended on where you and your family would have lived at that time and the influence that could have played.

Are there any states or territories that did not participate in the war?

@35thOVI
If you asked me who I would have fought for during the 30 Years' War, I would have answered for no one because conscription did not exist in the 17th century.

@Paskal
"If you asked me who I would have fought for during the 30 Years' War, I would have answered for no one because conscription did not exist in the 17th century."

Easy to say from your armchair. But you are not back there with your morals, education and culture of today. You are growing up with those of your area of birth in the 17th Century. 😉

So who we would have fought for is pure conjecture.

Are you asking people to be transported back in time with all of today's knowledge, morals and culture? If so, you need to change the criteria of your question. But if that is the case, it would be interesting to drop the person off in the draft riots of 5 Points or into a pro-rebellion protest on Charleston in 1861 and see how vocal the pro Union individual would be. How about being pro Confederate and being dropped off in the middle of Sherman's March to the Sea. I dare you to yell: "Hurrah for Jeff Davis and the Confederacy!".

I won't get into our inability to adjust to the conditions of those times. Drink that water from a creek or mud hole. "Dysentery today sir?" 😉

@Paskal
Relating miniatures to figurines and marbles??? Do you know you are on a forum about miniature/tabletop gaming?? Do you know how much time and effort it takes to paint and mount an army of 1000+ 15mm or 28mm mini's?? Did you check the sign at the door before you walked in?? Just because it's not your thing no need to knock the hobby and business. I have made some great friends and meet many interesting people over 30 years doing this. I personally feel anyone that has not at least tried this hobby with an open mind is missing out.

@35thOVI
You asked me who I would have fought for during the 30 Years' War, I answered for no one because conscription did not exist in the 17th century.

Furthermore, the region where I have lived all my life was not affected by the 30 Years' War.

For the rest, I will never write (Or never say) what I will do in situations in which I have never found, it saves me from writing (or saying) big stupid things.

@gamer1
I wrote: "No, if I got interested in figurines it's because of my passion for history, otherwise I might as well play marbles…".

Which means that I would never have been interested in figurines and/or wargames if I wasn't passionate about history and military history, it's easy to understand and I must not be the only one in this case.

Paskal you are still bypassing an answer to my question. Are you going back as you of today, or are you a person of that period?

With the first, you may want to do whatever you feel is right, but you don't know the situation you would be thrust into. Next you would go back knowing what to expect, physically, medically, etc. Would you join the 1st Minnesota just days before Gettysburg? Knowing you had an 82% chance of being a casualty. How about the 26th North Carolina in the same situation? Have you experienced wool uniforms in 90% plus temperatures and marched for miles? Been forced to sleep on the ground in low 40's during a 2 day monsoon, a nice wind and cold to the bone? Trying to sleep by a fire in freezing weather, your teeth chattering and one half burning while the other half is still colder than hel#. Marched 12 miles in your brogans with blisters on both feet. Yes if you have been in the military, you have and far, far worse than that. But those experiences are just a few I have experienced first hand. This does not count bad or no food, bad water, horrible medicine and the fact this will go on day after day, as it did for those real soldiers. I only did it for a max of 1 week and I was supposedly doing it for fun. I hope I didn't discount bullets, shells and bayonets. So I wonder how many wargammers moral certitude would last, yet alone the wargammer themselves if thrust into that hel#! At my age and health, I'd be a dead man walking.

If the 2nd, you would have no idea. You, like everyone else would be a product of your time. With all the morals and pressures of the area you were born into, your family, your friends and religion.

"You asked me who I would have fought for during the 30 Years' War, I answered for no one because conscription did not exist in the 17th century.

Furthermore, the region where I have lived all my life was not affected by the 30 Years' War."

Your first statement. Voluntary conscription no. But forced conscription, very much so.

Your last statement is fact. If your area was not part of the war and not touched by it, than you more then likely would never had fought. Unless of course you lived somewhere in Europe and your religious zealotry led you to one side or the other, or you wanted to leave the farm to "see the elephant" so to speak.

But your profile says you're from Zimbabwe, so you would have had other tribes to fear. 😧

😉

@35thOVI

With the first, it looks like you're talking about time travel, let's imagine that this type of travel exists, I wouldn't put myself in one of the situations you describe.

In the second situation, if I had had at that time, the character that I had all my life, my bad situation would not have lasted the time of the contributions, which must have been the case for many soldiers of this war.

But it is true that many soldiers signed up with enthusiasm to leave the farm or factory and "see the elephant" rather than for nobler reasons.

As far as I am concerned, I unfortunately experienced for months the poor hygiene of the armies on the ground…

Throughout history, in times of war, the lowest-ranking soldiers have lived like wild beasts, but that's not something you think about when you're looking at a book or figurines…

As for the Zimbabweans, they did not have much to fear from other tribes, but especially from the whites.

The Portuguese from the 16th century and who, like the British, launched raids until the end of the 19th century, without forgetting the Boers between 1847 and 1851, then definitively the British from 1890…

@All
The Confederates aren't popular on TMP?

That's weird…

Could you explain WHY you would have expected Confederates to be popular on TMP, he EEE ya?

Are you possibly confusing a willingness to play one side in a wargame with support for a political cause? Because we have a LOT more WWII German armies than we have Nazi sympathizers.

One of my Pennsylvania ancestors was at Gettysburg in the War of the Slaveholders' Rebellion. One of these days I'm going to have to check him out.

Why are you so surprised that TMP isn't totally Secesh?
You seem to have an unhealthy obsession with cheering for American disunity.
When gaming, I happily play either side. When gaming American Revolution, I paint and game all sides.

^ If MONSIEUR Pascal Mahe isn't a conscious "agent provocateur", perhaps he is one SUBCONSCIOUSLY!???

@robert piepenbrink
piepenbrink, do you know of a single topic where people say good things about the confederacy on this forum?

Those who play German armies from World War II do not do it out of sympathy for the Nazis, but for their armored units, I have seen that too.

But piepenbrink, do you know of a single topic where people say good things about the nazi regime on this forum and I'm not talking about the Wehrmacht or the Waffen SS?

As for those who would play Confederate armies, I do not think they have sympathy for a slave state but for the quality of their army perhaps, just like those who play Roman armies and many other ancient armies and who forget mass slavery, so they must have their reasons which must certainly be mostly playful.

On the other hand, I have never seen a Spartacus army on a table?

That is really not nice.

@John the OFM
I seem to have an unhealthy obsession with encouraging American disunity? LOL

I am not concerned by a historical fact that I don't care about 800% because I am not American and I was not contemporary, but on the other hand I would not have believed that the ACW was so interesting, especially its causes, is that allowed?

@mahdi1ray
My poor Raymond LOL

hi EEE ya, this is not a political forum. This site is dedicated to miniatures, and for the most part to miniature wargaming. Why should be be expected to be sympathetic to the Confederacy? Why should commanding Confederate armies involve a degree of sympathy for the cause which you do not expect from persons commanding WWII German armies?

If you want to hear nice things about Confederates, I'd recommend you stop asking questions about the causes of the war and turn the conversation to particular Confederate officers and units. I'll be happy to say a few kind words about Longstreet or Stonewall Jackson, about the 1st Virginia Cavalry or the Stonewall Brigade. But these are not the topics you've posted on. (Comes to that, I'd say something nice about Fritz Bayerlien and Willi Bittrich too. Military history is not politics.)

I agree with Robert. There are those on TMP who see the reasons for the war to be more than just slavery or disagree on who's fault it was that the war started. However, virtually all Americans are now glad that we are one nation and slavery is over. Given also that the Confederacy was created by breaking that Union and for the protection of slavery, why do you think anyone would be saying great things about the CSA now? Are you really expecting Americans to be saying, "Gee, I wish the US was divided up into several countries." Or, "Remember the good old days when the Confederacy had slaves?" Outside of a fine combat record and several good generals nothing good came out of the Confederacy.

The Civil War settled the grammatical issue of whether the "United States" was a singular or a plural noun.
Think about it.
When I hear the phrase "The United States are….", it refers to a collection of states.
When I hear the phrase "The United States is …", it refers to a nation.

Union – blue spray paint :D

Hi-Yee-ha asked if I would post this on his threads. I said I would post it on his most accessed. I self censored the last few words, but I think you get his meaning.

"Hi-Yee-ha has a fait sécession de TMP ! Merde ! MDR !😄

I am a Breton by birth like all my ancestors and that therefore I never give in and that I ##!!#%*""

Isn't that sweet.

Anything I have to say would probably just land me back in the dawghouse. :)

It's more fun staying out. You get to pretend you are more virtuous.

Let's sing!
YouTube link

We could send him some books on the ACW, but I'm not sure the French postal system would take something addressed to

Hi EEE ya
Brittany
France

Try Bretagne rather than Brittany.

You think that would work, then, OFM?

In a previous post, I identified "hi EEE ya" as Pascal Mahe!