
"How will Ukraine spend its new US aid?" Topic
82 Posts
All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.
Please remember that some of our members are children, and act appropriately.
For more information, see the TMP FAQ.
Back to the Ultramodern Warfare (2014-present) Message Board
Areas of InterestModern
Featured Hobby News Article
Featured Link
Top-Rated Ruleset
Featured Workbench Article Sam shows how to paint a vehicle, starting with silver and gold.
Featured Profile Article Part II of the Gates of Old Jerusalem.
Current Poll
Featured Movie Review
|
Please sign in to your membership account, or, if you are not yet a member, please sign up for your free membership account.
Pages: 1 2
35thOVI  | 29 Apr 2024 6:28 p.m. PST |
So, since you responded, would you trust your leadership in the position I asked about? |
Cuprum2 | 29 Apr 2024 6:34 p.m. PST |
It's a difficult question. I'm not ready to answer unequivocally. But in the situation I described – with a high probability "Yes". The stakes are too high and there is too little time to make a decision. To be late in responding to a nuclear attack means losing everything… I think the appropriate protocol will simply be involved here and everything will happen automatically. Moreover, the flight time of missiles from the territory of Ukraine to many Russian military facilities is now only a matter of minutes. Now there is no time to think for a long time or call the US president. |
Dal Gavan  | 29 Apr 2024 7:05 p.m. PST |
I've been curious. If things came to the very edge of the nuclear red line, would you trust your countries current leadership to be able to stop the taking of the final step? 35th, I wouldn't trust any of them with a nerf gun*. The idea of any of the last 20+ prime ministers making a nuke decision makes me nauseous. *Which would have been bought from a vendor for $n million AUD, then probably be sent to Kiev as a token measure of our support against Russia (with promises of more to follow). The CASG project manager who bought it would probably get a PSM or OAM for the successful addition to ADF capability (or a CSC if they were in uniform). |
35thOVI  | 29 Apr 2024 7:10 p.m. PST |
Well, maybe it's time for all involved to call for a cease fire and discuss an acceptable peace, before that red line is fatally crossed. Maybe all should learn from the mistakes of two previous world wars. Remember both started in Central Europe. Seems like everyone is calling for Israel to declare a ceasefire and the stakes there are not even near that of Russia and the Ukraine. |
SBminisguy | 29 Apr 2024 7:25 p.m. PST |
Well, maybe it's time for all involved to call for a cease fire and discuss an acceptable peace, before that red line is fatally crossed. Yes -- that should have been the first plan as well, but the Masters of the Universe in charge who helped precipitate the War thought, "Oh cool -- here's our chance to bleed Russia dry in combat" and who also tried to topple Putin with the failed Wagner Group coup. Nothing went according to their brilliant plans… I think Baldrick is smarter than this bunch. |
Dal Gavan  | 30 Apr 2024 5:25 a.m. PST |
I'm always curious about what it is that makes some people so determined in pushing Kremlin propaganda themes. Why is recognising the higher than average level of corruption in Ukraine (compared to Europe and North America) "pushing Kremlin propaganda themes", Midlander? It's there and, while it is reducing, Russia's invasion hasn't slowed or quickened any improvement. I'm not a partisan of either side in the conflict, though I do lean towards Ukraine (more so as Putin increasingly comes across as a shoddy copy of Stalin). So I find the level of emotional commitment to one side or another a bit puzzling. Especially when the filtered data we get- from the media and political mouth movers- means that few, if any, of us are able to form an informed opinion. |
SBminisguy | 30 Apr 2024 7:49 a.m. PST |
So I find the level of emotional commitment to one side or another a bit puzzling. It's because of domestic US politics. In order to undermine the Trump presidency the Democrats launched the Trump-Russia Collusion hoax -- a proven hoax through both the Mueller and Durham reports which have revealed the attack started with the Hillary Campaign which paid FusionGPS for opposition research. FusionGPS then paid former Brit spy Steele, who in turn paid Russian and Ukrainian informants to come up with dirt. They fabricated unverifiable and unsubstantiated dirt, from which Steele created the "Steel Dossier" that FusionGPS gave to the NY Times and others. It was on the pretext of those article "of concern" that the FBI launched Crossfire Hurricane and other blackops aimed at Trump and his Admin. At the same time the Democrats then whipped up an anti-Russia frenzy in the US media, screamed about election interference and how Trump was Putin's Puppet (despite Hillary's own UraniumOne bribery scandal in which the Clinton Foundation raked in millions of $$ from Russian sources after she, as SecState, approved the sale of 1/3rd of US Uranium production assets to a Russian anergy company). And if you questioned this, the very same US media and Democrats accused you of being a Putin Puppet! This of course seriously damaged US-Russian relations and killed Trump's diplomatic reproachment efforts to woo Russia away from China and prevent a deadly strategic alliance. So the Democrats have engineered a bizarre situation where to show you are a virtuous Democrat you must support Ukraine, and you must attack all things Russian, and to do otherwise is to be a dreaded evil MAGA SUPPORTER! Never seen such a crazy dangerous thing in all my short decades on this ball of dirt… |
Midlander65 | 30 Apr 2024 7:53 a.m. PST |
'Why is recognising the higher than average level of corruption in Ukraine (compared to Europe and North America) "pushing Kremlin propaganda themes", Midlander?' It isn't on its own – as you say, it is a simple objective fact and one I acknowledged at the start. The Kremlin propaganda themes go further, in particular claims that Western and especially US aid will just go to buy goodies for the ruling elite, even though most of it is in weapons and certainly not bags of cash handed over with no oversight. As examples from this thread: Murphy (24 Apr, 7:26 am PST) "Much of it will go into the pockets of the Ukrainian leadership, some of it will go to the people, (a token), some to the military… Think 80% 5% 15% and you'll get the idea." SBminisguy (24 Apr, 10:47 am PST) "Dachas, Dames and Disneyland??" 14Bore (24 Apr, 12:04 pm) "Pocket most of it, send some back to government and armament companies for kickbacks. Some will show up in private bank accounts in foreign countries" Of course there are a lot of other Kremlin propaganda lines to justify their attack on Ukraine and SBminisguy hits most of them in his post 29 Apr, 2:41 pm. * The war is basically the West's fault – we forced Russia to invade Ukraine. NATO agreed not to expand to include former Warsaw Pact countries. Then violated that promise. Not true – Gorbachev himself said there was no such agreement and the Russians seem surprisingly unable to produce their copy. * There could have been a fair and mutually acceptable peace agreement early on but The US or UK scuppered it. Not true, the only terms Russia would have accepted was Ukrainian surrender. In any case, why would Ukraine think Russia would honour such an agreement when they previously gave a written agreement to protect Ukrainian sovereignty before invading twice? * Ukraine can't hope to win so they should make peace now on Russia's terms and it would be irresponsible for them and the West to continue to resist because it might force poor victim Russia to start a nuclear war. He missed out the ever popular one that Ukrainian's are Nazis "I find the level of emotional commitment to one side or another a bit puzzling." It seems pretty clear to me. Russia invaded its neighbour to try to re- incorporate it into the Russian Empire, breaking treaty obligations. Along the way it has committed massive numbers of war crime, for examples: - Attacks on purely civilian targets, eg. recent precision strikes on residential housing blocks followed up shortly after with a second strike to kill the fire and medical responders, the same 'double-tap' procedure they used in Syria. - Rape and sexual violence on a massive scale. - Widespread systematic torture of detainees, including under 18s. - Taking Ukrainian children and dispersing them across Russia where they are being indoctrinated as good Russians to hate Ukraine. I also don't for a minute think that Putin would be satisfied with a win in Ukraine and that sooner or later we'd be finding out whether NATO Article 5 means anything. If you are interested in getting more information, I'd recommend the Daily Telegraph's podcast – "Ukraine, The Latest". They have a lot of direct experience and cover the military details much better than the main TV or radio news. Unless you want to go there yourself to check everything, I don't see much option other that seeing what the various media sources are saying and filtering it with what rings true and their past record for accuracy. Also worth a look is Julia Davis on X for a look at what Russian state TV is saying – it isn't exactly a call for calm and reconciliation! twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews By the way, I'd question your comment that the invasion has made to difference to the rate of improvement in corruption levels. I've seen multiple reports from people who have been there that the invasion has caused the Ukrainian Government to increase efforts to clamp down on corruption because they can see how it plays in the West and could threaten immediate support and their long-term hopes of joining the EU and NATO. At the same time, whilst fighting for national survival, the general public have become much less accepting of corruption. |
SBminisguy | 30 Apr 2024 8:23 a.m. PST |
Also worth a look is Julia Davis on X for a look at what Russian state TV is saying – it isn't exactly a call for calm and reconciliation! yep -- the time for peace was when Ukraine & Russia were in talks shortly after the War started…but Biden killed the peace. He Killed the Peace and seems incapable of Winning the War….which is not a surprise given the dismal record of foreign policy blunders and lost wars of his cabinet staff and advisors. Midlander65, you are extending a level of dogmatic, almost blind trust to these people that they do not deserve. I don't believe they have anyone's interests in mind than their own, and they will happily fight to the last Ukrainian and the last US dollar to get what they want. And based on your statements -- I can bet you support Team Biden this year, yes? What's so damn pathetic is that I was a Cold War kid who fought the Cold War at the very end when we won, my family were Cold Warriors, I had friends get injured during their time on the Wall as Cold Warriors. And from the 1970s onwards it was always the Democrats and Progressives who sucked up to and appeased the Soviets. Did you know Teddy Kennedy tried to cut a deal with the Soviets to beat Reagan in the 1980s? And then the Democrats continued to suck up to Putin during Obama's years in office -- remember Hillary's Great Reset button? Obama's open mic promising Vlad he'd killed European missile defense if he calmed down during the 2012 election? And what did OBama and Biden do when Putin invaded Georgia? Nothing. When Putin took the Donbas? Nothing. When Putin took Crimea? Nothing. And now they pretend they are the Great Cold Warrior, the Great Patriots wrapping themselves in the flag. Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining, dude. |
Midlander65 | 30 Apr 2024 9:16 a.m. PST |
SBminisguy: "Midlander65, you are extending a level of dogmatic, almost blind trust to these people that they do not deserve… And based on your statements -- I can bet you support Team Biden this year, yes?" I don't think I'm placing any trust in Biden, blind or otherwise and I certainly won't be voting for him, not least because I'm British. From this side of the Atlantic I can understand why a lot of American voters aren't enthused about either option. One thing you wrote earlier about how whether or not an Armerican supports Ukraine has become a test of politics: "Never seen such a crazy dangerous thing in all my short decades on this ball of dirt" – we can agree wholeheartedly on that at least. And I shouldn't have written 'Pushing Kremlin propaganda themes'. 'Repeating' or 'accepting' would have been a better choice of words to avoid the unfair suggestion of ill intent. |
SBminisguy | 30 Apr 2024 11:03 a.m. PST |
'Repeating' or 'accepting' would have been a better choice of words to avoid the unfair suggestion of ill intent. Nope. Still insulting. People can have their own conclusions and opinions derived without influence from Putin and his pathetic non-existent propaganda influence. |
Midlander65 | 30 Apr 2024 12:14 p.m. PST |
"Nope. Still insulting. People can have their own conclusions and opinions derived without influence from Putin and his pathetic non-existent propaganda influence." OK, just coincidence then that you have come to so many conclusions and opinions that exactly match the propaganda Russia pushes out in huge quantities through western social media and by buying Western politicians (Germans most recently, IIRC) and is further amplified by right wing US media. |
35thOVI  | 30 Apr 2024 12:36 p.m. PST |
As far as what one believes to be true, comes down to the sources of their information, their beliefs and their belief in the sources of their information to be unbiased. Then of course, their willingness to listen to sources that do not agree with their views. Lastly, over a period of time, determine what sources have been proven wrong more often. As far as the Ukraine War, ALL sources are biased. They either favor the Ukraine and spread more positive stories on them and negative on Russia, or obviously the reverse. Right now, IMO based on all the stories in the last 2 weeks, the Ukrainians are having a rough time and are being forced back. Now how bad and how far that is, will of course depend on the source of the information, and of course, that is my point. Their offensive was basically a failure. They expended men, equipment and ammunition, they could ill afford. They either believed, or were told, that the Russians were on their heels. Of course that was not true. So now the Russians have regrouped, resupplied and brought in more cannon fodder. Can the Russians sustain this, or will it be limited and casualties heavy? Who knows. But the Russians can sustain the casualties, as long as they are willing to. Population of Russia 2022 144.2 million. Population of the Ukraine 38 million in 2022. I've said before, even if the Ukrainians have a 2 to 1 casualty rate, the Russians can absorb it, and remember, it is not just Russians fighting them. It's remarkable what the Ukrainians have done so far. I believed the Russians would win the war in weeks. I thought their army was much better than it was. Also, I did not take into consideration how inept the Russians have always been with logistics. But now I believe we are in the equivalent of late 1943 or early 1944. I believe the clock is ticking and no matter how much money and equipment the Ukrainians get, the outcome is inevitable. I wish both sides would negotiate a peace. |
SBminisguy | 30 Apr 2024 1:42 p.m. PST |
propaganda Russia pushes out in huge quantities through western social media and by buying Western politicians (Germans most recently, IIRC) You're entitled to your opinion, but Russian propaganda is non-existent as an information threat, especially with the Tsunami flood of constant Ukraine War Drums pounded by the American media 24x7 and if you dare question anything about the war YOU'RE A PUTIN PUPPET TRAITOR! So when you come here and parrot that exact same pro-establishment pro-War propaganda, I have to wonder whose really been influenced here? Putin has been proven to the Mussolini of the 2020s -- his military can barely handle a bordering neighbor, he has no capacity to MARCH TO PARIS! and such other rot as I've seen fear-mongered in the media. I'm also especially skeptical since the US politicians who scream the loudest about Putin are the ones who kissed his a$$ and took his money for years! I think they went so far overboard because they really think they can manage the war to a conclusion they like -- that they are so smart they can avoid escalation, and in so doing they'll make a lot of $$ and influence, score political points and attack their foes, and otherwise be UNAFFECTED by their actions! So they kissed Putin's a$$ when that got them what they wanted, and now the oppose him so long as it's safe to do so and it gets them what they want. |
SBminisguy | 30 Apr 2024 1:43 p.m. PST |
@35th OVI I believe the clock is ticking and no matter how much money and equipment the Ukrainians get, the outcome is inevitable.I wish both sides would negotiate a peace. It was always obvious to anyone with common sense from the very start….but alas, common sense ain't so common… |
Dal Gavan  | 01 May 2024 6:50 a.m. PST |
Midlander, thanks for the detailed and considered post. Basically we agree on most of it- particularly Uncle Vladdy. I'm not as positive about the extent of improvement WRT corruption, an opinion backed up by more than the Wiki statistics. I'd say it was much less obvious and less blatant, especially if there's a popular anti-corruption movement building, as you suggest. Agree about war crimes, too, and that applies to both sides- going back to before the invasion. Do you remember the news reports of villages in the "Russian" parts of the Donbas being shelled (and vicky verka)? The same rigour WRT investigations of war crimes needs to be applied to both sides. Perhaps if the "West"- and political leaders from across the spectrum- had reacted more forcefully to the Russian incursions into Chechnya and Georgia, the annexation of the Crimea and Russian support of (or masquerading as?) separatists in the Donbas then there wouldn't have been an invasion. Leaders from the "Left" and "Right" all took a less confrontational stance. Then again it may have made no difference, or perhaps even goaded the Russians into a more aggressive stance. Nobody- even Putin, Macron, Biden, Alnbanese, Xi, Sunak, etc- really knows what's going on. Nor do their possible successors in government. I'd love to be around in 20 years to, perhaps, get a clearer picture of who, what and why we got to this stage. As far as the Ukraine War, ALL sources are biased. So very true, 35th. I'd say the same applies to Gaza, too. |
Legion 4  | 01 May 2024 8:27 a.m. PST |
"The first casualty of war is the truth." … But IMO based on my experiences, etc. … you can't trust Russia, China, Norks, Iran and of course – No radical islamists … Maybe that is just me? |
Midlander65 | 01 May 2024 9:19 a.m. PST |
Dal Gavan: "Agree about war crimes, too, and that applies to both sides- going back to before the invasion… The same rigour WRT investigations of war crimes needs to be applied to both sides." Absolutely agree and credible allegations of violations by both sides are being investigated. According to the UN Independent International Commission of Inquiry on Ukraine, after a catalogue of horrific crimes committed by Russian forces on Ukrainians: 'Ukrainian forces were also responsible for human rights violations, said Commissioner Pablo de Greiff: "We have found two instances of ill-treatment of Russian Federation soldiers by Ukrainian soldiers, and we mentioned this in our statement. We have found obviously significantly larger numbers of instances that amount to war crimes on the part of the Russian Federation.' It is well worth having a look at the UN report. There is a lot more on the UN site – just put Ukraine war crimes in the search feature. link |
Dal Gavan  | 01 May 2024 6:20 p.m. PST |
Thanks for the link, Midlander. I'll have a look at that later. I don't doubt that the Russians have committed far more crimes, exponentially more. Wagner's little boy scouts, by themselves, could probably fill a court's bookings for a couple of years. But it's laughable to think that the Ukrainians have only two worth investigating. A few minutes on various video platforms will show some more. Let's hope none of the Security Council permanent members find a way to strangle the investigations. Whoever is guilty or innocent, it would be nice if the lunacy stopped. PS I just had a quick read and they do seem to be taking it seriously. However, either the investigation or the article is aimed at the Russian war crimes (low hanging fruit?). There should be an equivalent effort put into looking at the Ukrainians. The same with Gaza. I see that there's a push to charge the Israeli leader with war crimes. What about the leader of Hamas? And, for that matter, Hezbollah, PLO, Houthi, etc? |
Dal Gavan  | 01 May 2024 6:51 p.m. PST |
"The first casualty of war is the truth." … I don't discriminate, mate, and distrust them all equally. You remember the old saying about politicians and moving lips.  |
Cuprum2 | 01 May 2024 9:05 p.m. PST |
I could trust the investigation if it were conducted by a party that was not interested in one way or another. Otherwise, this is not an investigation – this is propaganda))) |
Dal Gavan  | 02 May 2024 2:37 p.m. PST |
I could trust the investigation if it were conducted by a party that was not interested in one way or another. Unless have some justice loving aliens land and offer to investigate and mediate then that's unlikely to happen, Cuprum. I doubt there are even Tibetan hermit monks that haven't heard about the invasion- and will have an opinion that will influence an investigation. As usual it's a bloody mess created by a few people who suffer a severe ego to IQ imbalance. It's a pity wars can't be fought by putting the responsible politicians in a locked room, with cricket stumps, baseball bats, pens and paper. Either one would emerge victorious or, most likely, they'd suddenly find a reason to compromise. |
Legion 4  | 02 May 2024 4:08 p.m. PST |
|
Cuprum2 | 02 May 2024 8:37 p.m. PST |
Hearing about events or choosing sides are two different things. If you participate in a war directly or indirectly, you are a priori not objective. But there are many who are not participating in the current war… India, for example. |
Dal Gavan  | 03 May 2024 4:59 a.m. PST |
https://logiwebconnect.com/ Not for most people, mate. They will hear about something and then form an opinion. That opinion being mainly based on experience, personality, circumstances, bias and prejudices.It will also be influenced by how the news was conveyed (media or word of mouth), level of cynicism/gullibility and culture. The response (opinion) could vary between disbelief, acceptance, rejection, rejoicing- probably as many responses as there are people. The media, advertisers, politicians, government agencies and propagandists know this and exploit it to the fullest extent they can. But you know all that, mate, don't you? |
Cuprum2 | 03 May 2024 5:05 a.m. PST |
So there is no such thing as a fair trial in this world, buddy? Is every judge of this world biased and interested? Well, then all these assessments and courts have no meaning at all))) Long live anarchy and the rule of might! |
35thOVI  | 03 May 2024 6:14 a.m. PST |
". But there are many who are not participating in the current war… India, for example." India to point, has sided with Russia, either by non-commitment or via trade. Yes an international unbiased country would be very hard to find. I've said in the other thread, you need an individual who is disliked by NATO and most of the current deep staters in the US and Europe. But also strong enough to hold Russia to account. |
Legion 4  | 03 May 2024 7:32 a.m. PST |
Stong leadership is the #1 thing the US lacks. |
SBminisguy | 03 May 2024 9:44 a.m. PST |
Stong leadership is the #1 thing the US lacks. That's what happens when you have an Oligarchy running your country. |
Andy ONeill | 03 May 2024 10:09 a.m. PST |
The US has lacked strong leadership for some time imo. Seems strange from an outsider's perspective that you guys just have no good options. Makes me very sad that politics got in the way of saving Ukraine. Often seems like when they get what they asked for it's too little too late. We should really have supported Ukraine 10 years back. Maybe that could have deterred Putin and saved a lot of suffering. And of course money. |
Dal Gavan  | 03 May 2024 2:28 p.m. PST |
Where did that website in my previous comment come from? So there is no such thing as a fair trial in this world, buddy? "Not for most people, mate." Did you miss that? Still, excellent use of straw in the construction of your post, mate. :-) Some people, either through training, personality or experience, probably can make unbiased decisions. I can't say I've met many, perhaps two, and I'm not one. But, in reply to your "Is every judge of this world biased and interested", there are some judges and investigators that seem to be able to be totally objective, based on their reputations for fairness and incorruptibility. "the rule of might!" is pretty much how things have been run since our distant ancestors were growing their own fur coats. Anarchy? Over-rated and quickly morphs into a dictatorship. |
Legion 4  | 03 May 2024 4:28 p.m. PST |
SB +1 Dal +1 Didn't one of Stalin's henchmen say something like, "Show me the man and I'll show you the crime." … 'nuff said … |
Pages: 1 2
|