"Bolt Action 3rd edition!" Topic

So there is going to be a third edition of Bolt Action. Out in September. It is new and improved, but they don't say how. All the old army books (Codex?) will be replaced with new ones. It also says you can use existing forces, but you might want to buy some new units as points costs and special rules will have changed. So I guess that means all the stuff that doesn't sell well now will be dirt cheap on points in the new lists! Me cynical? Never! :-) Link to the announcement link

Churn and burn baby, churn and burn.

Ah the saga of WarhammerWW2 Battles continues.

You're right-on Fred!

At some point it's just plain manipulation in the service of sales.

I'm getting close to the point of divorce (not from the hobby), but from the direction these retailers think the hobby should be going. I've been borrowing the "Old Skool" moniker for reflecting this mindset, but really, it's more about knowing what's been excellent already, and what's just retail "click bait".

Btw, don't expect anything critical to be written of a new 3rd edition in the retail mags either, they're all sucking off the same tit.

Btw, it's foretold by #7 (but obviously been all too common – better use of our time – get to work on that next OS scenario instead).

TMP link

Lol. I just bought the 2nd edition. I have great timing. 😀😝

Well Stew at least you will be able to pick up the old army books dirt cheap now!

I too, am appalled! However…
It's Warlords business to sell books and to keep their authors paychecks coming. I don't fault them for that. Just not on MY dime (is it still a dime?).

It's our hobby, and also our dime.

Btw, I can't recall anyone here asking for a 3rd edition, least of all Stew above.

On the lighter side, who's looking forward to the next version of Lead Balloon.

Dumb

So, you can't just play 2nd Edition still? Or first for that matter? They are your minis- play the game you want.

So, you can't just play 2nd Edition still?

Amongst you and your friends you can play what you want, but the guys who want to play tournament games will have to go 3rd edition plus the new codexes sooner or later just like the WH40k gamers.

I'm okay with this as long as the changes are good. Point driven beer and pretzels games sometimes need a refresh and rebalance. Warlord has to make money somehow. This feels way less greedy than GW. They both look positively saintly next to Fantasy Flight Games.

And that is why I don't play tournament games. I will look over the new rules but likely will play 2nd Edition. (Hell, I am still chapped about the switch to artillery templates. The old rule worked fine).

At least being a WWII game means they can't invalidate your figures.

Sad to see Warlord go down the Games Workshop rabbit hole. As you say all about money a new version with a whole new range of army books wow how original Warlord. I can see rulesets going to a v2 but if you haven't got it right by then you won't. Rather start a fresh new name new mechanics and dynamics etc. I will finish getting the Campaign books, luckily they are still valid for v3, and then call it a day for Bolt Action. I'm not a competitive gamer and only game with friends so v2 will do. Mark my words all books to follow for v3 will be duplication of their predecessors with minimum new content.

At least being a WWII game means they can't invalidate your figures.

No true, but this comment in the announcement makes me think they aim to get players to buy more stuff! "You'll likely find, however, that you'll want to invest in some units that you might not have considered in the current edition, as there have been widespread changes to points costs and individual unit rules!" Be interesting to see what the winners and losers are.

The forced obsolescence of the Codex lists with each new Edition is what killed FOW locally.. A lot of sunk capital now useless.Bolt Action intends going in that direction too?

I'm not a competitive gamer and only game with friends so v2 will do.
Mark my words all books to follow for v3 will be duplication of their predecessors with minimum new content.

Yep the % of people who play any wargame at comps is small , compared to those that don't .

New books with the same stuff just with different stats and pts , from the version before .

Yep the % of people who play any wargame at comps is small , compared to those that don't

Hmmm! I am not sure that is true for games like FoW, Bolt Action and all the GW stuff as they are designed to attract the competition player with the plethora of special rules and army specific stuff. Things like Tiger Fear in BA and if my memory serves me right, one of the German para special figures was nicknamed the Necromancer in one of the editions of FoW as he could "resurrect" killed stands!

Hornby Plc bought a 25% share in Battlefront in July 2023 for 1.25m pounds:
link

Look at Hornby stock since 2021: link

3rd edition has been in the works for quite awhile:
TMP link

Hornby and Warlord stock: link

Priestly is a 10% shareholder.

No details of Warlord's profits were given in the RNS announcement, but a look at Warlord's last published accounts from Companies House for the year to October 2022 shows a movement on the profit and loss account reserve on the balance sheet – which is usually the retained profit for the year – of £494,000.00 GBP

Remember, follow the money. Public companies are responsible to their shareholders who probably do not play any of the games or buy their products. Without their investment, you don't have a company or product. Solution: make your own.

It's a publish-or-die industry.

Wolfhag

As Alan in Canbewrra said…"The forced obsolescence of the Codex lists with each new Edition is what killed FOW locally.. A lot of sunk capital now useless. Bolt Action intends going in that direction too?…."

The FOE Ver3.0 to Ver4.0 changeover did just that here in So Cal. Split the player groups into two camps with very limited player crossover between them. FOW group gaming is a mere shadow of itself since that edition's publication day. My group stayed with Ver3.0 and cherry picked out rules from Ver4.0 which we thought improved the gaming. All the codex's retained for use and no need to purchase the Ver4.0 material. Saved thousands in published material cost and no need to regroup/reformat the miniature collections.

All good points. It is indeed a publish or perish world (which is why the cult of the new is so big in all games- it has to be if people keep their livelihood- people have to eat).

That said, I will look over 3rd Edition and judge it by the merits. Second Edition was a very minor change from 1st (though I didn't love the aforementioned artillery templates). I would be surprised if 3rd is a big change from 2.

If it's worth it, we will all likely play (after all FOW was super popular through 3 editions before they angered everyone with 4th).

I always recommend an open mind. I like but don't love Bolt Action. If a 3rd addition changes what I don't like I might still go for the ride.

Admittedly there are two other skirmish games I like better.

Warlord is a better run company than Hornby. They are probably under pressure to demonstrate continued profit. Stollard is no spring chicken. He may be interested in a buy out.

Hi guys. I never really post on here but I felt like I needed to speak up for this one.

I graduated from Games Workshop into Bolt Action as soon as I found out it existed. I had grown very very very tired of buying a new GW book for my army every three or four years, plus supplemental rules, plus new units, new templates, etc. Thousands of dollars to be a competitive player who came in middle of the pack at tournaments. Forget the fact that I had even had armies completely dropped from use over the years. Not to mention a lot of the books weren't anything I could resell as no one really wanted them.

Plus, WW2 was way more interesting than my blue space guys fighting your green space guys.

Warlord was a breath of fresh air. My Armies of the US book is from 2012 and my new Armies of book is the 2016 German book. I've bought the campaign books that suit my style of play and supported Warlord with time and money. I didn't have to worry about them dropping The British from play. I'd also grown out of the competitive play mode since I wasn't in my 20s anymore. With 50 rapidly closing in on me I was a bit more conservative.

I'm absolutely not worried about buying new armies of books. After 12 years of use I would be on my Third or fourth GW book for that army. So yes, I agree with guys who don't play Bolt Action that it seems like a money grab… but they hopefully will fix some problems (while generation new ones) and I'll fork over my $35 USD for a book. They've even mentioned that the campaign books aren't invalid.

I'm gonna have to wait and see. I'm not unhappy though.

I am not sure that is true for games like FoW, Bolt Action and all the GW stuff as they are designed to attract the competition player

Can only attest to FOW in the UK , most comps now get less than 20 players , so BF won't be making much from them .

Looking at the results from Cancon in Aus this year it got 20 players , back in the V3 days it was getting 100+ .

Then there's the unknown numbers of people who play other WW2 and modern games with BF products .

Hmm like Dan says I like BA but don't love it. It's a game my mates down the club play a lot. For me the only notable change they made from version 1 to 2 was making easier to rally from PINS so I'm not sure what else they will be looking to do here. I dare say folks will have some ides here. There are plenty of unpopular new editions of rules apart from FOW…AK47 anyone? Time to have another go at getting my mates to like CoC.

I've Old-Skooled Bolt Action from the start, so never did present it using points builds or its tourney formats, but instead got into the weeds using it as a quick-play WW2 skirmish system only (and it still works fine for this).

Maybe criticism vs. another BA version comes easier having a degree of separation to play games without needing point lists, or codexes, with no BF'in, or GW'in…..

Good point FlyXwire. The first time I played BA I used a scenario from one of the Skirmish Campaigns books. It was an attack/ defend scenario with the defenders properly hidden, not on the table with their dice on ambush. Trouble is wargamers don't seem to want to play games like this any more :(

"Properly hidden"

Perhaps for lots of gamers, they're just blind to gameplay like this – that is, unless it's been OKed by the rules, and only when playing under that such-and-such encounter format, as found on pg……um…..61.

Generously, maybe it came from a new downloadable scenario (btw, which then becomes 'asked-for' content included in that next, freshly renewed edition).

Hey, thanks or being Frank too. ;)

Something else you wrote (and others have expressed too) -

"There are plenty of unpopular new editions of rules apart from FOW…AK47 anyone?"

Instead, the new editions are meant to make your old set unpopular…….and so, if tournament-style of play is it, why accept a company taking your game away?

Baffling!

Can only attest to FOW in the UK , most comps now get less than 20 players , so BF won't be making much from them .

Fairly typical for a competition set. Eventually it hits a version too far and the bulk of the community move on. For DBM, competition players stuck with it until Phil Barker brought out DBMM. A few moved to that set, a few stayed with DBM and the rest moved to something else.

Let my membership lapse of late, and now I'm constantly being told certain big companies are trying to shut TMP down. Is this one of them?

Hadn't heard any of that Silurian, and there's still visible advertising on TMP too……

(almost afraid to ask for any such details)

Doesn't seem like a cash grab to me.

1st Edition 2012
2nd Edition 2016
3rd Edition 2024

So it was 4 years between 1st and 2nd (and that makes sense to me, as tons more games led to discoveries of rules to tweak or streamline or replace.

And now it will have been 8 years. That is a reasonable chunk of time.

Perhaps the ultimate solution is for a specialized AI routine to write rules customized to your input. I don't think any rules or game mechanics are trademarked.

I've seen very few new editions with any real new innovations, it's a variation on a theme that can rarely be validated by historical actions or tactics. The rules and mechanics seem to come down to player preferences more than anything else.

If the new edition is largely rewritten then it's a new game. If there are only a few changes they can be included in an errata addendum for free.

Wolfhag

I guess in the end it will be what the update really is. We updated our rules and yes you do have to buy a new set after 15 years to get the best out of them however much has been covered in fee bulletins, but there are no real incompatibilities between issues.

The Lists remain the same as they were based on the real world and surprisingly history often does not change.

Our basic mechanisms remain intact. So is Bolt action a new set aimed at just selling more or a genuine update in the light of 8 years of play. Special rules changing means perhaps they got it wrong to start with or its a commercial grab. I guess nobody will know till there is more information.

+1 Seattle

We use a field-stripped version of BA for our daft big games because of the wide familiarity among players and of course the basic principles can be picked up much more easily than anything else.I doubt if V3 will make a great deal of difference to anyone apart from those whose playing life revolves around tournaments. In regard to 'paychecks for authors' ….unless there has been a major change the authors of campaign books get the princely sum of 2000…..hardly riches beyond the dreams of avarice, and not a great deal for the amount of effort involved.

Out of curiosity, do any of the posters complaining about this currently use Bolt Action as their main WW2 ruleset?

….unless there has been a major change the authors of campaign books get the princely sum of 2000…..hardly riches beyond the dreams of avarice, and not a great deal for the amount of effort involved.

Apparently the campaign books aren't being updated it is just the army books. Not sure how they will handle the issue of conflicts between the old campaign books and the newer material. Time will tell.

To Verify……Wash-Dry-Repeat……

"I've Old-Skooled Bolt Action from the start, so never did present it using points builds or its tourney formats, but instead got into the weeds using it as a quick-play WW2 skirmish system only (and it still works fine for this).

Maybe criticism vs. another BA version comes easier having a degree of separation to play games without needing point lists, or codexes, with no BF'in, or GW'in…"

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Actually, was the first one in my area to put on games using Bolt Action 12 years ago.

I can assure that 1st and 2nd edition have worked fine when playing the rules for multiplayer scenarios – also, did adapt the system for company+-level gaming (search Blitz Action here on the forum).

Just some games from last year – and anytime I get the opportunity to repost eye-candy on TMP I'll take it :)))

So a long-time Bolt Action end-user, that's been patronizing and promoting it for a dozen years on, with lots of local games for area fans (and they have a good time playing too – that's why I do it) – sort of have some opinions too on best practices for getting and keeping those games coming to the tabletop also.

3rd Edition – buy it if you need it – (point is, many of us don't – and that's our dime, and our time).

Chain of Command main rule book (with a few amendments) has remained the same since 2013, with adjustments from campaign books for specific actions. So you could say there's been no change for the sake of it, or it was pretty much right first time, although that's probably not true. Very few rules are.

Players then are either happy, adopt house rules, or just accept the short comings as they see them. Like most rules, I think you get to a decision point were you keep playing, or admit you have seen this movie too many times. Alternatively, the author/publisher makes a decision for you.

There's a lot difference between "if it ain't broke don't fix it", ploughing on with other projects and deciding not to return to older ones. As there is in actually up dating rules with new ideas or revision of old ones that players want and combinations of that which just happen to generate sales/cash at the same time. Along with the risk that players can still feel they have just had enough.

Ultimately, the players, would be players, or former players decide what's what!

I don't think it's as bad as people are saying. At least it doesn't seem like they're going like Battlefront did with Flames of War and actually treating it like GW with invalidating units and crap because they don't sell the models. That would be way worse.

I get they have to do something to keep selling stuff, or the line would eventually just stagnate. Plus it's been like 8 years since 2nd edition came out, a far cry from GW's new edition every 3 years.

My FLGS is finally in talks with stocking Bolt Action and Achtung Panzer so I'm looking to start getting it going at my local store.

- Wayne

At least it doesn't seem like they're going like Battlefront did with Flames of War and actually treating it like GW with invalidating units and crap because they don't sell the models.

They actually got rid of stuff that people had already paid for , like command , observer and staff teams , as they were in the blisters or box sets for older versions .

If you take a LW British 3" mortar platoon blister for V3 , you lost the command , 3 obs and 3 PIAT teams in V4 .