"WOTR Irish Leaders" Topic

I'm going to start an Irish contingent for my Wars of the Roses armies and had a question about Irish leaders. As many of you probably know, there doesn't seem to be a lot of info on the subject, but I was wondering what the Irish leaders wore in terms of armor? Was it similar to their counterparts in the Yorkist or Lancastrian forces (full harness/armor) with an attendant bearing their banner, or was it more similar to their dress in the Dark Ages? I know that the actual fighting men didn't change much from the Dark Ages, but not much is ever mentioned about the leaders.

Apart from the battle of Piltown, between Fitzgerald and Butler, were there any Irish 'leaders' in the Wars of the Roses?

old china, you could very well be right. What did Fitzgerald and Butler wear on the battlefield? I was just trying to figure out how to represent leaders with units of Kern and Gallowglas as well as a contingent commander. Thanks.

Fitzgerald and Butler were earls, of Desmond and Ormonde respectively, and would have had coats of arms. It's fairly certain that they would have looked like English knights.

Gallowglass were essentially mercenaries, although they did have shifting loyalties to various clans. Like all mercenaries, they would have worn what they could plunder, and what they could afford. Their leaders would be a little better dressed. Mail coats and steel helms? As time went on gallowglass became more regular troops

Kerns were light infantry and cavalry usually raised and maintained by local lords, and led by captains from the petty nobility. There's a painting by a Flemish artist of one such captain around the time of Yellow Ford (1598). The subject is barefoot and doesn't wear armour.

The richer Anglo-Irish probably had the best they could afford, so I agree with old china about Fitzgerald and Butler- full plate and probably a jupon with their arms over the top. Galloglass probably as old china describes, probably with an akheton, but there's bound to be some who managed to get their hands on brigandine and perhaps some plate (if they were allowed to keep it).

I've never been able to find much about the Irish in the WotR. There's a lot more available for before and after then, for some reason. I've just got Turner's book of his artwork and I'll have a browse through that, later, and see if anything turns up.

On the plus side, aegiscg47, the lack of evidence means you can go with what they probably had available, and likely be right.

Dal Gavin, thanks for the info. I have Turner's book as well and there is one scene from Stoke Field, but it doesn't show much. Burke and Butler were at Mortimer's Cross while Preston, Plunkett, and Eustace were at Stoke Field commanding the Irish units. Fitzgerald and Kildare were at Stoke Field, but seemed to maybe command household and men at arms type troops. Very confusing, but as you said I could probably do almost anything and call it good!

Thanks for that info on Stokes Field, mate. I haven't looked at that battle. I'd like to have some more Irish than that Welshman Butler. :-)

Hi

The Old English Lords eg the Butlers probably wore similar armour to the English Nobles. Their captains probably also worn similar armour to men at arms. The Galloglass were heavy foot, with chainmail shirts and padded jackets.

New book from Helion just come out on the Irish from 1487 – 1587 which might be helpful?

Thanks for the heads up, JtR. It's not released yet (according to their site) but I registered my interest.

James Butler, Earl of Ormonde was also the Earl of Wiltshire. He got away at 1st St Albans and Mortimer's Cross but his luck ran out at Towton. Definitely in western harness, as would have been any Anglo-Irish from "within the pale".