"Napoleonic Belgian and Dutch Cavalries uniforms in 1815" Topic

Hello everyone,

Just as there are no Uhlans references in the Napoleonic – Russian 25 mm MiniFigs range :

TMP link

there are no references for the 6th Dutch Hussars and the 8th Belgian Hussars in 1815 ?

In the 25mm Napoleonic MiniFigs ranges, which references from which nations would have uniforms that most closely resemble those worn by Belgian and Dutch hussars?

These two regiments had identical cut uniforms and the same types of headgear?

And the 4th Dutch Light Dragoon Regiments and 5th Belgian Light Dragoon Regiments had identical cut uniforms and the same types of headgear?

Although having completely different types of headgear, the 1st and 3rd Dutch Carabinieri Regiments had uniforms cut identical to those of the 2nd Belgian Carabinieri Regiments?

NO

Carabiniers – yes.

Light Dragoons – No

In above the 4th are in blue & red; and the 5th are in green & yellow.

8th Hussars

6th Hussars

6th & 8th Hussars

@marmont1814
According to you, no differences in the cuts of their uniforms and their types of headgear between the 6th Dutch Hussars and the 8th Belgian Hussars Regiments in 1815?

In your opinion, no differences in the cuts of their uniforms and their types of headgear between the 4th Dutch Light Dragoon Regiments and 5th Belgian Light Dragoon Regiments in 1815?

And still according to you, apart from their types of headgear, no differences in the cuts of their uniforms between the 1st and 3rd Dutch Carabinieri Regiments and those of the 2nd Belgian Carabinieri Regiments in 1815?

@Prince of Essling
Thank you for the beautiful documentation.

So according to you, it is not only their types of headgear, which are different between the 1st and 3rd Dutch Carabinieri Regiments and the 2nd Belgian Carabinieri Regiments in 1815, the cuts of their uniforms too ?

Otherwise no differences in uniform cuts between the 6th Dutch Hussars and the 8th Belgian Hussars Regiments?

And no differences in uniform cuts between 4th Dutch Light Dragoon Regiments and 5th Belgian Light Dragoon Regiments in 1815 ?

So it won't be enough for me to find heads of 25mm minifigs wearing cocked hats suitable for making Dutch Carabinieri in 1815 from the Belgian carabinier 25mm minifigs reference below ?

And for the 6th Dutch Hussars and the 8th Belgian Hussars Regiments in 1815, references of 25 mm French hussars minifigs with bell top shakos like below would do the trick ?

Or I have to change their heads for those of Dutch-Belgian Light Dragoons like the one in the 25mm minifigs reference below ?

Minifigs have so little detail that so long as the headgear and straps are right, you can do most of the rest with paint.

@Paskal,
Carabiniers – my answer was yes to your question i.e. same cut but different headgear.

Hussars are a bit of an issue as you see from the various illustrations that two types of shako were used. 8th Hussars thin & tall; 6th Hussars more like older French model.

Light Dragoons same problem, plus 4th had braid on the front of their jackets.

Let us be honest. However many illustrations we produce from various publications, the Netherlands army was in a state of transition (for that read underfunded chaos).

We can all deck out our foot artillery with the brass shako plate and rear peak, the Carabiniers with that really nice helmet, the foot chasseurs in green but wearing a Belgic shako. But there is huge doubt about all this before late 1815, if at all for some. Many an illustration is 1820 and then some. It would not bother me , I would paint what looks best

The Carabiniers nr. 1 still wore the 1814 uniform with hats and long tailed coats with pink facings. Only their grey pantaloons had been replaced by short overalls, reinforced with leather.
Their faulty dragoon saddles had been replaced by Belgian carabineer saddles (entirely similar to French cuirassier saddles). They had retained their dragoon housing and valise (the housing somewhat pointed with a chevron over an embroidered number 1).
The rest used British dragoon saddles that had no sheepskin, but cloth holster covers.
Their sword belt were light cavalry style, their gauntlets had very short cuffs.

Their trumpeters were only distinguished by swallow nests with white lace and fringe; no red coats.

@Dexter Ward
Yes it's true as these are old school figurines, a lot of clearly visible details must be done directly with paint or "green stuff and paint".

@Prince of Essling
For the Dutch Carabiniers, they used cocked hats, but of what origin?

For the 8th Hussars it would be necessary to use French Hussars with 1814 Shako like the references FNC5 below?

And for the 6th Hussars, references of French Hussars with bell top shakos like the references FNX3 – FNC 12 and FNC69 – below?

But what origins were their uniforms from, because perhaps the French hussars would not be ideal?

So for the 5th Belgian Light Dragoon Regiment, it would be necessary to use French Hussars heads with 1814 Shako like the minifig references FNC 5 above and the minifig references DBNC 5 below would represent the 4th Dutch Light Dragoon Regiment?

On the other hand, I read I don't know where because a very long time ago, that the 5th Belgian Light Dragoon Regiment wore French Chasseurs à Cheval uniforms and that is why it had suffered collateral damage on June 16, 1815.

Also figurines of French Chasseurs à Cheval from the references FNC 70 and FNC 89 below could they not represent the 5th Belgian Light Dragoon Regiment?

Afterwards you will also have to find minifig horses with the right saddlery.

@deadhead
Completely agree, hence the interest in discussing it on TMP.

@DrsRob
The 1st Dutch Carabiniers still wore the uniform of 1814?

Uniform from 1814 of what origin?

Bravo for the details, so now I suppose that in the end that the 2nd and 3rd Carabiniers wore uniforms that were still different from the 1st Dutch Carabiniers?

A dragoon uniform based on that of the Batavian dragoons of 1800.

The 3rd carabineers wore the same uniform with yellow facings. It had proposed and was allowed to change the coats to short tailed single breasted coatees of the 1815 pattern. In may the master tailor travelled to the field squadrons to change their coats as well. It seams this was completed before the battle.
Their short overalls were a regimental pattern, reinforced with an extra layer of cloth on the inside leg.
Material for the new scarlet trumpeter coatees was only supplied in August, so they (the trumpeters) were still only distinguished by swallow nests, as in the 1st regiment.

Bravo but where can we find the best documentation on the uniforms worn by the Dutch-Belgian troops in 1815 ?

Here is a Dutch cavalryman with a bicorne which should be reasonably compatible in size with MF.

link

I don't have a copy but possibly "The Dutch-Belgian Cavalry at Waterloo – Military History" By André Develloet
Published 2008
ISBN: 9789077129265

Large format. Uniform illustrations by Niemietz. Includes a detailed description of the action of the battles of Quatre-Bras and Waterloo, hour by hour; Extensive quotes from letters, diaries and other original sources; Uniform plates in full colour; Detailed maps and more.

See "The Napoleon Series Archive"
link

Full review at:
link

Nice book, but the uniform information is not based on any independent research, as the author told me at the introduction.
He felt we will never know with any certainty how the Dutch and Belgians were dresses at Waterloo. Having done such research myself, I tend to disagree.

What about the Ospreys?

Pawly did do independent research, just not extensively. Also, the plates by Courcelle are not always in accordance with the written text.

Pawly research and the plates by Courcelle are in which book?

The two ospreys "Wellington's Allies"

JAN ANTHONIE LANGENDIJK (from the Royal Collection – though labelled Horse clearly the Carabiniers):
Serjeant, 1st (or 2nd) Horse. drawn 1814
link
Private, 1st (or 2nd) Horse. drawn 1814
link
Trumpet-Major, 3rd Horse. drawn 1814
link

From "White Rose Fine Art Chicago at link
Jan Anthonie Langendijk, together with his father Dirk (1748–1805), are regarded as the most reliable and important painters of military scenes from the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars.1 Their stylistic characteristics are extremely similar, they had a virtually identical ‘hand', although Dirk is generally considered the more accomplished draughtsman.2 It is known that Jan Anthonie completed a number of unfinished paintings by his father after the latter's death in 1805. Jan Anthonie was taught by his father, and lived in Rotterdam, Amsterdam, Brussels and The Hague, finally settling in Amsterdam. He married Johanna Catharina van Everen in 1809, after having co-habitated with her for some time.

Jan Anthonie and Dirk are most famous for their work ad vivum, drawn ‘from the life', of the French armies entering the Dutch Republic in 1794, and the resulting wars. Father and son followed the armies and the major battles, resulting in the Battle of Waterloo in 1815 during which Napoleon was defeated, and executed many very lively battle scenes. Jan Anthonie depicted many of the key historical events of his day, such as the entry of Louis Napoleon in Amsterdam on 20 April 1808 (Rijksmuseum, Amsterdam).

@Prince of Essling
Thank you for all this information and the three Osprey Men at Arms on the Dutch-Belgian troops, what do you think?

Jan Anthonie Langendijk is a prolific painter, but his illustrations are hardly the most reliable.
His details are supurb, his figures lively, but the whole often suspect. He frequently paints uniforms that have not yet been issued and sometimes are not finally adopted or changed before actual issue.
From that we must conclude that he uses his fantasy alot, or – more friendly – that he tends to work from memory.

@DrsRob
So if for you Pawly has done independent research, but not in depth and Courcelle's plates are not always consistent with the written text, you advise against M.A.A. No. 355 and 371?

And what do you think of Otto von Pivka's research and Chris Warner's illustrations?

I think any and all publications are riddled with errors as there has never been any in depth research done.
I've yet to publish my research (in English), so I can't refer you to it.
(There are some articles by my hand in Dutch on specific subjects on the website Mars & Historia under "recent onderzoek", though. I also published an article on Dutch Colonial Infantry 1814-1854 in Armamentaria 22, again in Dutch.)

Apart from that, Pawly can be used as a starting point.
The tekst by Otto von Pivka is not bad, though his information on the 1815 armies Largely is derived from Langendijk. The illustrations by Chris Warner are copies of contemporary illustration and Knötel. The latter however had misidentified certain illustrations of French (light) infantry as showing Dutch uniforms. (A3, D1 and D2)

By the way, I forgot, Louis de Beaufort who illustrated the work of Commander Henry Lachouque on Waterloo and many others on the Napoleonic wars therefore also illustrated practically each body of troops of the three armies which clashed at Waterloo without forgetting those of the kingdoms of the Netherlands, if you know them, what do you think of his illustration boards?

I didn't know them until now.
Looking at some, I'd say he simply copied illustrations known to him by Langendijk, Knötel etc. Not an independent source.

The André Develloet book on Amazon is $1,476.99 USD dollars used! I think the Osprey books will do.

@DrsRob
I don't know if he simply copied known illustrations from Langendijk, Knötel, etc. But he is an elite illustrator.

@Old Contemptible
LOL, whether on eBay or on Amazon, there are some who with their books, believe themselves if you have seen it, in the Franco-American-Spanish film 'The Ninth Gate' directed by Roman Polanski released in 1999 and taken from Arturo Pérez-Reverte's novel 'El Club Dumas' published in 1993.

I'm not judging the art, just criticizing the information it provides.

In any case, at some point they all have to have the same sources…

Two plates illustrating Belgian cavalry extracted from "L'Armée belge, exposé historique de son organisation, de ses costumes et uniformes, de son armement et de sa tactique, depuis les temps primitifs jusqu'à nos jours. Notes et dessins recueillis"
By Colonel Rouen
link

The Ronald Pawly & Patrice Courcelle books on Wellington's Belgian & Dutch Allies mentions as one the sources consulted various issues of "Carnet de la Fourragère" dated between 1924 & 1965. Unfortunately this publication does not appear to be accessible online – Ghent university has copies.

@Prince of Essling
Thank you for my PDFs and for your information.

Otherwise, what do you think of the 25 mm minifigs representing the Dutch, Belgian and Nassauvian troops in 1815?

Not too many uniformological errors?

Below: DBN 1 Belgium Flank Co – March Attack

Below: DBN 2 Belgium Flank Co – Advancing

Below: DBN 7 Belgium Center Co – March Attack

Below: DBN 8 Dutch Line Infantry – Advancing

Below:DBN 12 Dutch Chasseur – Advancing

Below: DBNC 1 Carabinier

Below: DBNC 5 Light Dragoon

Below: DBNC 9 Field Officer

Below: NN 1 Grenadier – March Attack (Nassau)

Below: NN 2 Grenadier – Advancing (Nassau)

Below: NN 3 Grenadier – Firing (Nassau)

Below: NN 7 Line Infantryman – Advancing (Nassau)

Below: NNC 1 Chasseur (Nassau)

When did the Nassauvians have chasseurs à cheval ?

Otherwise in 1815, the Nassauvian regiment (28th) of the Kingdom of the Netherlands wore the Dutch uniform ?

From Rawkins:

"The Reitende Jäger came into being in 1804 as a single company formed from the merger of a number of minute Freiwilligen-husaren units who had acted as gendarmes within Nassau-Ussingen and some troopers of Nassau-Weilburg origin who had been the personal escort of the Fürst von Nassau-Weilburg as inhaber of an Austrian kürassier regiment. Initially the unit consisted of a single company which continued to act as body guard for the Fürst von Nassau-Weilburg.

In 1807 Bonaparte calculated the the newly created Duchy of Nassau could support a regiment of light cavalry and ordered that a two squadron regiment be raised as part of the commitment to the Confederation of the Rhine. Two squadrons of Reitende Jäger ‘von Nassau' were raised in 1807 one from the territories of Nassau-Usingen and the other from Nassau-Weilburg and perhaps because of this were never formed into a consolidated regiment but remained as two independent squadrons with a shared ‘Divisions-stabs' and depot company.

The 2.Schwadron, Reitende Jäger, was dispatched for service in Spain in September 1808 and served with the French Army of the Centre as part of Treilard's Dragoon Division where they proved adept at anti-guerilla warfare having outstanding success against the Spanish partizans and irregulars and drawing high praise for their bravery and courage. The 1.Schwadron remained stationed at Biebrich as bodyguard to the Duke of Nassau until
March 1813 when it was dispatched to join the other squadron in Spain where both squadrons became part of Berton's light cavalry brigade. On 22 December 1813 the squadrons were ordered to the fortresses of Barcelona and Fornells where they were detained, disarmed and incarcerated as prisoners of war until January 1814. The squadrons remained listed as part of the Nassau forces but the Reitende Jäger von Nassau were never reformed as an active unit."

Plate illustrating Belgian infantry and artillery extracted from "L'Armée belge, exposé historique de son organisation, de ses costumes et uniformes, de son armement et de sa tactique, depuis les temps primitifs jusqu'à nos jours. Notes et dessins recueillis"
By Colonel Rouen PDF link

Here is the Heer und Tradition plate for the Belgian Infantry

Here is the Heer und Tradition plate for the Belgian cavalry:

@Prince of Essling
Thank you for all this information, now as I only collect my dear 25 mm Minifigs and there are gaps in their Napoleonic – Dutch/Belgian/Nassauvian range, I will have to work a lot, but as we must not give up Before the horse, I prepare the ground with the search for documentation.

So I ask you again what do you think of the 25 mm minifigs in the photo above representing the Dutch, Belgian and Nassauvian troops in 1815?

Not too many uniformological errors?

In any case, at some point they all have to have the same sources…

True, but the origin of the information in these sources is obscure.

Carnet de la Fourragère

The "Nationaal Militair Museum" in Soesterberg has the series too. I've photographed the relevant articles.

I'm only now starting to make drawings to show the results of my research, so unfortunately at the moment I can't do much more then criticize existing ideas. It would require book-sized posts to explain my findings in writing.

… The book(s) I'm going to write … in English.

@DrsRob
In the meantime I will make a synthesis with what I have in documentation.

In fact, given the subject, there are not too many differences between each author.