"Calling Mortars 120mm 1980's tecnology" Topic

OK so I am setting up a new scenario, a bit artificial but not too far from reality but my lack of knowledge of the real world is giving me problems so I could use some help.

The scenario is set in woodland. Our typical visibility in woods is 80m. Walking at least through some UK pine plantations this is not too far from the truth so start with that as a working assumption.

The recon has spotted some enemy dug in and I needs to suppress them. They have an MOP in sight of the target and need to call in the 120mm Mortars (M113A1/120). Is this even possible? As being even roughly in sight of them puts the observer in danger close as far as I understand it. How would the observer call it in and would it be a case of calling the target, moving out the way then calling Shoot, wait for the bang and then go see if the "sensing round" for the sake of a name, came even close? Call any correction, move out and do it again. What would be the closest you would go risking danger close?

Or

Is it a case that the "Sensing round" is sufficiently low risk that you would stick around and only move out when calling fire for effect? Even crude timescales would also help us if you have any information.

Again real world answers not war gamer answers please. We can easily adapt the rules if necessary but we can't start without real world information.

I have cross posted to Game Design as earlier periods may have had similar issues and may shed some light on the issue.

If it was me (19D in a previous life) I would note the grid, back up a bit and THEN call for fire. 80m they might hear me on the radio

They would back off and find the location on the map and call in a grid mission, for either a 6 digit grid or 8 digit grid. They could also call in a Polar mission which is the FDC needs to know your location and you give him an azimuth direction in mills and distance. It's not impossible. You can if the mortars are in the mood call for VT ( variable time fuse) which would detonate in the trees.

In Panama in 89 I had an freaking fantastic Polar mission in the works for the 81mm which were in direct support of my patrol when the ass in rear Battalion Commander nixed it, like the scumbag he was.

Assuming the mortar tubes are not tied up, you can have steel on target pretty quickly.

It would be called in as a 'danger close' fire mission.

Obviously, you can only adjust a spotting round if you can see it. The safest thing would be to figure out the 8 digit grid coordinate, fall back, then call in the mission.

How much time does 1 turn represent in your rules?

A few minutes so It would really but we have subroutines for vary rapid actions like some exchanges of fire where the time step is more like 10 seconds. It would only be time critical if you needed to back off and call, which is what seems to be in theis case. I guess as its a grid call the danger area would be 200m as there can be no correction before fire for effect.

Is a big mortar the right choice in a forest?

Usually used against troop/vehicle concentrations in the open.

120mm mortar has lethal radius of 30 meters with possibilities out to 100m radius.

You'd need to know the range probable errors to avoid your recce team being minced…

… and consider splinters to stop them getting shredded.

As you are in a forest – can't you just soften them up with LAW/66 and then assault them under cover of smoke and winkle them out with grenades and bayonets?

Wow, this is bringing back memories. In my Cavalry platoon, I had a dedicated M109 track with a 4.2" / 120mm tube. My next assignment was AFVs a XO for an armored Battalion, 3/10, HHC. In combat my position turned into the platoon leader of the mortar platoon with four M109 and two M577 FDC centers. Each center could control two each or one FDC could run all four tubes. In certain cases mainly when dropping smoke or flares , the op formation was one FDC and one tube covering one section of the line AND one FDC would deploy at a critical point in the line.

There were different operations orders/ parameters for offense and defense for the tank. Battalion.
When it comes to Cavalry operations were really wild. More smoke and flares used than HE rounds.

So to your question, there were two different danger close calls. Due to Soviet assault tactics, on defense the DC was only 50 yards. Different than in Vietnam since the enemy were mainly on foot.

On offense there was no danger close on offense though we tried to stay 75-1 yards ahead of lead elements but that was only when the objective was bunkers or a fortified point.

If we were shooting flares or smoke there was no danger close in either operation. Now gamers always forget about the deployment of the front. A frontline had combat platoons, organic overmatch like TOWs, cavalry, normally one company per battalion. However tracks for ECCM tracks, GSR tracks from the MI battalion, the ADA provided one or two tracks using Redeye and Stingers at that time, There were also Chemical smoke units laying defensive smoke and Engineers laying traps and mines for defensive.

As a Cavalry officer, my plans and range cards were very complicated. I had my own tanks and TOW tracks so the use of mortars and fire lans were complicated.

Mortar operations. The lead tank/scout or squad called the in the the landing and correction to the FDC. Our FDC was co-located with the tubes so there was quick ,little correction, to fire. So repeat fire was very quick. Direct fire often had the sqd leader of the section on the track or beside the gun. See my photo of my platoon on the gunnery range, on Facebook, looking at the original and photos of the tracks swimming a large lake. Cavalry had a lot of tasks especially after the attack began.
So adjustments are not an issue for a good Altoona, like my Puerto Rican platoon. Heck they were almost all from the same city. Lol.
Again different guides for the Cavalry.

TimePortal – The German TOE is for a Reonnisance Battalion, well part there of. Jaguars are no good in a wood. There organic support is M113/120's so thats what I am stuck with. I will reduce the fire fort effect area and set danger close at 80m (i.e just in visibility) close to your suggestion without adding rules complexity.

The mortars may be more about getting stuff past than attacking. Yes the Germans have Carl Gustav's so have some capability that way although the Germans in this one are short on infantry. Scouting not fighting is the predominant aim.

Thanks for the help.

I hope you give the mortars all three ammo types, HE, smoke and flares.
The sensing round as you called it can be HE but was often Smoke. Smoke was less dangerous to friendlies and a lot easier to spot for adjustment.
Good and enjoy, rule design is a labor of love and not a money maker. Lol.

The one calling in the mortar fire, are they in the open or are they protected soemhow like dug in or in a ditch or trench, it can make a tremendous difference.

Depeneding on your target, different mortars tend to be used for various different targets. If you only see a platoon or less, odds are you'll only get something like the support of 60mm or if you are lucky maybe 81mm mortars. Those 120mms are reserved for large targets like company size or vehicle concentrations and such. Using 120mms might be overkill and quite often you'll simply be told no.

Are the mortars in support and ready to you or are they availabale, which means they have to be interrupted and perhaps moved and sighted on target.

Make more sense?
Need a simple break down for calling in and adjusting?

Anyone with a radio or a land line can call it in.
Since you say it is a mortar observer post, they'll handle it.

If they prepared the ground with pre-planned target reference points something like this;
"Fire Mission, Zulu Tango 06, enemy platoon dug in, no overhead, direction 0 9 0 0, will observe and correct"
A round lands, they give corrections;
"Left 5 0, add 100, fire for effect" and all kinds of metal falls from the sky.

Each army might have a couple details a little different but that is basically it.

If the observer team finds a target cold without planning their map coordinates then the information passed on to get fire needed are;
-Grid of target
-description of target
-direction from observer to target in mils
-knowing if the observer can observe and correct the fire
-sometime the distance, but if you need it enough to call it in, usually this is not considered too important by most

I hope that makes sense.

For armoured recconnaisance troops, we used to prepare artillery and mortar concentrations and smoke on our own positions when we were doing delays and withdrawal.

Call it in on our own position and driver withdraw Go, go, go.

Do not forget the use of pre-registered RPs. These were used for quick adjustments for artillery and mortars. For our organic Cobras, nice to have our own Cobras, the RPs were used as a guide point.

The comment on Jagers effectiveness was interesting. In the US Army, we had an entire Fiel Manual dedicated to our use. Scouts were scouts and not intended to contact the enemy. The primary mission is to gather information not fight. Each track even tanks and mortars had a reconnaissance classification book. Each man in the platoon was taught how to evaluate and report to the platoon leader the situation at a location. A SitRep. I the officer would combine them for a sector report or call them in individually based on time available.

A chapter in the FM talked about the Scout platoon of combat battalions. The EM MOS was the same in both. however the platoon leader was an experienced. First Lieutenant from the organic unit and not Cavalry trained. So an Infantry battalion would have an infantry officer as the PL. a scout platoon needed to understand the needs of their battalion, so they knew what to look for.
So a 19D would check out the sector and report on bridge condition and weight bearing load, woods and traffic ability, dense or open underbrush, creek bank steepness, road type such as paved, gravel or dirt, bogs, enemy minefields, NBC/CBR rating. Just a few items. They also carried a laminated report form and grease pencil. I often carried three. Lol.

TimePortal Now I feel a bit pathetic, yes they are mortars dedicated to the reconnaissance and so why did I think of using smoke to sence, far lower risk DURR!

See below

West German
Reconnaissance Company
Battlegroup 1981 to 1985

1x Mortar Section with LD 6
2 x M 113A1/120
1 x MOP team with Iltis jeep VT1
1x MOP Digital FC TINS with a Laser Range finder (32 rds. ea.) HE, AB, Smk BE/WP, ILL. Mix determined before game.
Range of 450m to 6550m.
32 Stonks total of mortar fire at rates below
4x Stonks of HE/smoke @ burst rate per phase for max of 2 Phases every other bound.
2x Stonks of HE/Smoke @ Sustain ed fire rate per phase (i.e. when (i.e. when burst fire rate is not allowed).

troopwo – We typically allow only about 6 reference points FDF's or what you will for a battery. The aim being for the attackers in this scenario that there are too many key points to have them all registered. But a few may come in handy.

I am assuming in this difficult terrain the spotter will be on foot, he only has a jeep anyway. However the LUCHS crew could call it in but again they are likely to be on foot if they have to for the mortars, but the vehicle will not be far away.

Tiumeportal – Yup we have sold a few hundred sets of rules/lists, far beyond our wildest dreams and originally we were not going to do lists, as you can make your own specs up from the real data. However they seem to sell more than the rules.

We have achieved beyond our wildest dreams in money terms, we recon we have made a massive 1 UK Penny pew hour spent!
However in fun hours for ourselves and the guys in the club who play them, the reward is beyond measure! Like you say a labor of love and after 15 years we are still going with as much fun as ever.

Yep writing rules and articles a more of a labor of love than a jackpot. It is a good ego boost with side benefits of research knowledge.I was stationed at Stuttgart in 1982 assigned to the G1 Seventh Corps HQ. I did two other trips of shorter duration. I was on Reforger with 3/10 Armored Battalion and in 1981 as the S4 of a Military Intelligence Battalion on a classified inspection.lost my hearing due to M551 Sheridans so I transferred to the Quartermaster.

Between 1977 and 1979, my unit participated in the Division Restructuring Tests. The Army was testing new concepts for post Vietnam forces. Every segment was covered. The division had one brigade of 5 tanks per platoon, one brigade of 4 tanks per platoon, one brigade of 3 tanks per platoon. The end recommendation was four tanks per platoon but was never implemented beyond the States. My task was comparing 81mm and 120mm mortars. Infantry Bns kept 81mm and armored kept 120mm. You never saw as much butting of heads as there were in these meetings.

Great discussion from some knowledgeable and experienced vets.

I'll give the Grunt's view from the VN (Cold War) era.

UshCha (hey, welcome back to my favorite habitual offender) it seems your scenario is a Movement to Contact operation. In an operation like this or on patrol, the team leader would get with the battery commander and go over the movement route and anticipated timeline. At specific positions along the route, they would select Reference Points on the map designated as RP Alpha, RP Bravo, etc. The battery commander, having been at the firebase for months, would have these location previously zeroed in.

When the patrol starts out, the Team Leader informs the battery commander which RP he is headed towards. The battery commander would attempt to have at least one tube (mortar or howitzer) zeroed in on that RP ready to fire. As the patrol progresses the tube is changed to the next RP.

If the team leader makes contact he could radio, "Fire Romeo Papa Bravo (most likely with a +/- offset), 4 rounds HE, fire for effect". The battery commander would respond with "Fired" when the round leaves the tube and "Splash" 20 to 30 seconds later (time of flight) to let the team leader know the rounds are going to impact and get your head down.

On a patrol, the barrage is designed to enable the patrol to break contact if they have been spotted. If not spotted they can engage a target of opportunity.

If a barrage is on target and more rounds are needed, the patrol leader says, "Repeat" and in 20-30 seconds 4 more rounds land. If not on target he calls in corrections.

The idea is to get rounds on target as quickly as possible. I'm sure there could be slight variations based on the team leader and battery commander's requests or needs.

That's how I remember it from 50 years ago.

Wolfhag

80m visibility in woods?
Seems a bit optimistic.

Andy ONeill UK deciduios woodland meets this 80m figure at the top end of the range. Deep dence pine forrests less perhaps but in the UK some commercial woodland are so dark they have no undergrowth and are relatively "low" trees so thay can make 80m but generally the density is very high so impassible asily for vehicles.
the other issue is the relationship yo the models. I have a T55 next to me (1/144) and it measures 25mm by about 45mm thats about 25m by 50m at ground scale, that gives a compromise I can live with in all aspects. How to you deal with these issues on the table.

Guys thanks for the info. The scanario using wthis information is uneder wway and the information you provide is very usefull in shaping a credible representation of the issue.