"Are our dice really random?" Topic

As I was unboxing some new Faction Dice I got to thinking that we gamers select our dice in a Darwin sort of way.

I'm going to use my Blue dice, they roll better. It's not science but we might keep the good dice around and mess up the randomness

I run a "Second Sunday" table top game day at Fort Meigs in Perrysburg OH. (www.fortmeigs.org) It's designed for new and old players alike with miniatures games of differing skill levels. What I've noticed is the mystic of the "Lucky Dice' infects all ages. I try to dispel this buy having the players pick from the same dice tray. That keeps them from favoring one particular die over another.
Having said that, at our weekly game nights the boys will try to isolate the "good" dice from the others and keep them by their side of the table. Old war gamers are just too willing to continue bad habits. No judgement here, just an observation.

It is incredible sounding --- but we have had a set of 4 smaller dice for many years that really do seem to mysteriously roll sixes at a suspicious rate???
Go figure?
I poom-pawed it for years and am now "a believer?"

Russ Dunaway

Random I am not sure, but H8 me I am

Sure. Random does not mean equal distribution.

I'd be surprised if they were as honest as Vegas dice, but I'd be VERY surprised if they were as much a problem as rules, scenarios and various forms of cheating. I've also know rules where different numbers are good for different functions, which plays hob with your selection method.

Also I have my doubts about the widespread use of such a method. I don't discard dice for bad rolls, but for being chipped or--more often--being hard to read. (Many have had pips repainted to improve contrast, but that's different.) Also a lot of dice are associated with armies. I don't roll blue dice because they roll well, but because I'm playing Continentals, French or Union. The "Law and Order" dice--black with a white eagle for the "6"--come out for Imperial Storm Troopers and Judges, the "Desert Rat" dice for 8th Army and so forth. One die may be crooked, but how do I tell them apart?

Query: has anyone buying dice in flea markets or discard bins in hobby shops had a problem with them rolling low? If not, Darwinian selection isn't working very well.

All Peter Pig games insist all D6 being the same.
This helps prevent "i am looking for my special brown D6" ," I am going to change my D6 for this turn" , "this is my special shoot D6" etc. Saves a lot of wasted time.

I expect most groups have their own in house rules?

martin

Well I worked with Lou Zocchi in the /1984-6 when he was working on the 100 sided Zochihedron. We had several devices to test hardness and we did other tests. Ironically putting dice on the road and letting cars run over them was his favorite. 25 cents each or 50 cents if inked. Lol.
These were the days before Chessex.
My son actually won a regional science fair event by doing a probability study on d6.
Sharp edged dice are more balanced than rounded jedge dice. When a die goes through the tumbling process, there is no way to ensure each edge is hit the same number of times.
Any dice that is multi- swirl color are unbalanced since the different colors have different density.
Additives such as sparkled unbalance the dice. The density and scatter density varies so another reason for imbalance.

"Any dice that is multi- swirl color are unbalanced since the different colors have different density.
Additives such as sparkled unbalance the dice. The density and scatter density varies so another reason for imbalance."

Hmph. So my dice purge of some years back improved the overall honesty of my dice! Multi-colored ones were the first to go, as being harder to read. (Not sure I ever had dice with additives. I try to confine that to my food.)

No one who has seen me roll dice believes I can roll consistently that badly just by random chance. But they never have any problems when they use my dice.

Robert

Humans are really good at identifying patterns, even when they aren't there. Hence the popularity of conspiracy theories, as well as my pal Wayne's inability to roll anything except '1' in critical situations.

Any dice that is multi- swirl color are unbalanced

I knew it! 😝. The new dice were Red/Black "Bretonnia" dice (fleur-de-lis on the 6)

They are HOT

TimePortal, ayup!

The smaller the die and the roundier the corners, the more unbalanced they are. The best cheap dice are the basic Yahtzee dice. The worst dice are Chessex.

Chessex deeply rounds the corners of their dice to save on material costs. Those cute little dice are the worst. And they do in fact roll more 1s than 6s. With the pips drilled out, the 6 is the lighter side and tends towards being the upper face, but momentum keeps the die rolling and the 1 comes up.

Data here:
link

Hmmph. Maybe, Minimo--but the Yahtzee people won't make me Vichy French dice with the Frankish Axe in lieu of a 6.

(It's on the list. I've already had them make the yellow with Anarchy "A" for block wars and my various wretched hives of scum and villainy.)

I read where D6 that have holes drilled out for the numbers will bias toward the higher numbers as the 1 side is heavier than the six side. Painted numbers will be more consistent.

Time Portal – so it's not my dice that H8 me, it's my dice tower?

A couple of stories on experiences.
So Zocchi made dice and was a wholesale company. As such he was often sent games by new designers or publishers. Once we got a new game in from Japan on naval warfare. I think it was called Yamato. It was in about 1985. So examined components and did a test game. We contacted the company giving our opinion on the rules. The Japanese were crushed every time. They responded that the dice, which we did not use, provided had an intentionally larger pip drilled out. So that side was lighter and would come up more often. For game balance the one result was more positive for Japanese action.lol.

The most balanced and expensive dice for d6 are the casino dice. They often run close to $40 USD a pair.

Farnox, see the data in the link I provided above. The 1 side is heavier (unless that pip hole is bigger, I have dice like that), but momentum keeps carrying the die and the 1 come up more frequently. Up to 30% fo rsome dice.

My son (at a GenCon) took Kaplow's very weighted d6 that will roll 6s all the time and got them to roll 1s. He is a magician and can roll anything he wants on normal dice. Dice mechanics are more common than you think. Always use a dice cup that is shaken at least twice before the roll. Dice towers are predictable they turn the dice x many times every time. Put the dice in the same way each time and they will tend to come out the same way each time.

Play with people that you trust, and don't play for money.

Piffle. I think the claims of "unfair" dice are largely marketing malarkey. If the weight distribution was that unfair, why wouldn't the die roll "6" every time? Why would it ever roll anything different?
The truth is as Martin Rapier says— humans are wired to seek out patterns— it's why we look at a cloud and see a bunny rabbit, or a cinnamon roll and see the head of Mother Teresa ( link ).

So if you don't want a 1 or do want a 6, you will notice the appearance of the same in your die rolling, and think you are seeing a pattern when no actual pattern exists. (Notice that nobody argues that a die will more likely roll a 5 than a 2 or a 3 than a 4, despite these numbers being on opposite sides and the lower number having arguably "more weight" due to fewer pip holes than the higher.) You're looking for a pattern and so you find one. Is it actually a pattern? Probably not (pun intended).

And yes, I doubt even the supposed "studies"— there are just too many other factors affecting the rolling of a die— height above impact surfaces, angle at drop, momentum and vector at drop, friction/hardness of impact surfaces, deformations in impact surfaces and so forth— that I don't think any die can be guaranteed to roll any given number on any given drop, aside from dice so deliberately weighted that they ONLY ever roll one result— and if you can't figure out when a die is so weighted, you're not paying attention at all.

And I call "bunk" on claims that someone can force the result of a die roll from even a two-baffle dice tower. I've tried, even with a 4-sided die, the most famously non-rolling die of all. Varies every time. But given that any result has a 25% of happening on any given roll, I can see why someone thinks they can—
"It just didn't work that time" being the most likely excuse when it doesn't happen.

All of our dice are a add hoc collection from monopoly games, etc and I tell you the smaller 6 dice from the pile of the two sizes available roll 6s way more often.
Anyone is allowed to use them in all fairness.
Go figure?????

Russ Dunaway

I doubt the problem is in the dice themselves, I think its down to the technique of throwing. If the die rolls on a flat surface without skidding, and rotates at least 3 times, I think you get a good distribution of results.

Still doesn't explain how my dice 'know' when its most devastating to roll a '1'! Threats, curses and such have no effect on them. (sigh)

I have 3 baffles in my dice tower and only use 2 10 or 20bside dice

Take a look at these slow-motion videos of dice rolling through a Dice Tower, and tell me how you can accurately control the results: polydedra dice, one at a time; polyhedra dice, by the handful.

My dice rolls through my Towers built by the maker of those within the videos, inspire my fellow gamers to implore me not to use them! My rolls are horribly random, with terrible results… I use my Dice Towers precisely because everyone knows the dice rolled through them, are incredibly random. LOL!

Believe what you will.

For me, the videos speak volumes, regarding how truly random dice rolled through these Dice Towers really are. Cheers!

I have caught dice cheats out by slipping them "average dice" or other dice that don't have the standard number of pips. When they claim to have rolled an impossible result, you know.

I don't get super worried about the true randomness of the dice I roll. It's not Vegas and the dice get passed around the table so I figure it all evens out in the end.