"Fascism in Ukraine" Topic

A more honest assessment than usual:

YouTube link

If there is fascism in Ukraine who cares? It is their country. They want to allow some fascists' to exist they can. It still doesn't give Russia no right to invade Ukraine. Try to conquer them. Massacre civilians, gang rape women, force children and others to be taken to Russia, bomb hospitals and schools. I am sick of this "There are fascists" excuse! So what.

And while there aren't as many as some of the Left believe/hope, we have "Fascists" in the US.

Does that mean we've lost the right to defend ourselves?

TVAG

I find it sadly amusing that Putin thinks Ukraine is a Fascist state! 'Pot calling kettle black' I say!

Authoritarian leader
Belief that they are the Master Race
Intolerance of opposing views and minorities.

Do I need to go on?

"Do I need to go on?"

Invading a country to protect (German 1938) Russian (2014-2022) people!

Not forgetting that the "Far Right" got about 2% of the vote in the elections.

Tally Ho!

Add MilEFEX3030 to ignore list.

JMc Carroll + 1

Someone who didn't give name or even country with only 3 month here and seeing his performance… I have no doubt about his "classification" as visitor here… you know…

Armand

It always surprises me when someone, instead of discussing the issue raised, begins to discuss the personality of his opponent.
For me, this always means that a person simply has nothing more to object to… Which means his opponent is right, regardless of his personality.

In fact, the topic of Nazism in Ukraine is no longer relevant – this conflict has long outgrown the scale of this problem and Ukraine itself. It is now just a battlefield.

Ukraine is a sovereign state that Russia had no right to invade. That does not matter if they have a king, president, or dictator. Putin has invaded several of his neighbors because that's what he does.

Bunkermeister

Amen Bunkermeister!

@Cuprum. Yep. Leftists (who love Nazis, remember The Nazi Party came out of the National SOCIALISTS) will no surprise use Nazi totalitarian tactics like attacks on character, doxing if possible. They see anyone with differing views as inhuman and morals don't exist when arguing with THE ENEMY WHO MUST BE DESTROYED. The effect is for a long time people have been self censoring. But things are changing. The truth is coming out.

@Bunkermeister. Did Ukraine Bandera fans have a right to ethnically cleanse areas of Ukraine after 2014? Did Ukraine have a right to shell innocent Russians in the Donbas before the invasion? Was Russia supposed to just sit there when Sevastapol was taken back by a US installed dictator?

If you think the attrocities are one sided, and Russia invaded for no reason, you don't know the origins or context of this war and shouldn't really comment on it.

@The Virtual Armchair General:

Ah yes, there are some fascists in the US and every country, a common argument as to why Nazis in Ukraine are "no problem."

However, can you answer these questions about the US?:

Does the US have a national holiday for a Nazi war criminal? Ukraine does. link

Does the US have large military formations that are political and openly adhere to a far right ideology? Ukraine does.
link

The Left thinks that any nationalist is automatically a fascist.

What is the difference between a fascist and a communist? It's a serious question.
There wasn't much difference between living in Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union.

Hitler encouraged his people to recruit communists into the Nazi Party. After WWII, the East German Stasi reciprocated by recruiting "former" Nazis into the East German secret police.

I say a pox on both their houses.

The Ukrainians are amateurs. You call that Fascism. Our Fascists don't wear hoods. They are operating in the open. They took over a major political party and they have a dictator want-a-be as their candidate and none of them seem to care. You got nothing over us.

What is the difference between a fascist and a communist? It's a serious question.

Here is a serious answer.

"Economic System:
Communism advocates for a classless society where the means of production are owned and controlled by the community as a whole. The goal is to achieve a stateless, moneyless society where resources are distributed according to need.

Fascism, on the other hand, does not have a specific economic system but often supports private property and capitalism. However, the state plays a dominant role in regulating and directing the economy to serve the interests of the nation.

Role of the State:
In communism, the state is meant to wither away over time as society progresses towards true communism. It's envisioned as a temporary entity that facilitates the transition from capitalism to communism.

Fascism glorifies the state and considers it the ultimate authority in society. It often promotes a totalitarian government where the state has complete control over all aspects of life, including the economy, culture, and individual freedoms.

Social Structure:
Communism seeks to abolish social classes and create a society where everyone is equal. It aims to eliminate hierarchies based on wealth, class, and power.

Fascism, while not strictly advocating for a classless society, often promotes a hierarchical social structure with a strong emphasis on nationalism, loyalty to the state, and obedience to authority.

Ideological Basis:

Communism is rooted in Marxist theory, which emphasizes the struggle between the proletariat (working class) and the bourgeoisie (capitalist class). It aims to overthrow the capitalist system and establish a socialist society on the path to communism.

Fascism emerged in response to the perceived failures of liberal democracy and communism. It emphasizes nationalism, authoritarianism, and the supremacy of the state, often with a charismatic leader at the helm.

Attitude Towards Individualism:

Communism tends to prioritize collective interests over individual rights, aiming to create a society where individuals work for the common good.

Fascism often emphasizes the importance of the collective (the nation or the race) but may also exalt the individual within the context of serving the state and its ideology.

While both ideologies have had significant impacts on the 20th century, they represent opposing ends of the political spectrum, with communism advocating for the abolition of private property and the establishment of a classless society, and fascism emphasizing authoritarianism, nationalism, and the supremacy of the state."

Yep. Leftists (who love Nazis, remember The Nazi Party came out of the National SOCIALISTS) will no surprise use Nazi totalitarian tactics like attacks on character, doxing if possible. They see anyone with differing views as inhuman and morals don't exist when arguing with THE ENEMY WHO MUST BE DESTROYED. The effect is for a long time people have been self-censoring. But things are changing. The truth is coming out.

You couldn't be more wrong. National Socialism or Nazis has nothing to do with Socialism. Using the word socialism was a deception to win over working-class Germans. It was confusing to them then and it is confusing now and that was the point.

Nazism is an extreme form of Fascism. The Nazis banned the Socialist parties. They arrested their leaders and sent them to camps. The rest were eliminated during the "Night of the Long Knives." Anybody who joined the Nazi party who mistakenly believed they were Socialist were sent to camps or eliminated. Nazis were anything but Socialist.

Tang01-MilEFEX3030 said he was from Canberra, Australia in an earlier topic on which he commented. His previous posts are predominantly wargames related.

I disagree with a lot of the "ultramodern " posts; they seem to be click bait. However, people are entitled to an opinion. If we cannot even do that these days, then we are no better than the fascist/autocratic states we choose to comment on.

So comment away, obviously employing a degree of manners. I may ignore you, disagree with you, provide an alternative view or agree with you. But I have no time for personal attacks.

I sustain " JMc Carroll + 1 …" … this was not a personal attack… it's my own opinion and move here…

But thanks to direct a comment to me… this was the first one from you of any of the thousands of threads I have posted on TMP…

I also understand that you decide to support a compatriot…

Armand

You're welcome, although I have commented on some of your stuff previously.
I was not taking aim at you per se, apologies if you thought that, but just a general impression of the quality of "debate" that is sometimes undertaken on here. I don't mind a good argument, just don't like pile ons

Cheers
Jon

This is one of the type of posts I find great entertainment here on tmp.

Some great responses here

"If there is fascism in Ukraine who cares"? (obviously not you)

"Add MilEFEX3030 to ignore list". {This one is a classic. I put my fingers in my ears and go WAAAA}

"Ukraine is a sovereign state that Russia had no right to invade. That does not matter if they have a king, president, or dictator. Putin has invaded several of his neighbors because that's what he does" (replace russia with US)

"Someone who didn't give name or even country with only 3 month here and seeing his performance… I have no doubt about his "classification" as visitor here… you know" ( its obviously Vladimir…… its got to be).

Play the ball not the man! Once again when some are presented with facts they just can not deal with it and have to retreat to the safe space they are comfortable in. Coming round to the fact that they have been deceived by their leaders and media is painful, but not without some culpability on their part, even if its only that they were naive.

Shout out to Bill for allowing these honest discussions.

@OldContemptible – yes I'm aware of all of that, as I'm sure most here are. You do lay it out very clearly and it's good to be reminded of the text book definitions of this stuff.

The world now is very different to the 1930s. To gain/increase power and control over their own people, I believe Western governments now use whatever's convenient, fascism or communism to demoralise and hold people down and maintain their own power. And even in the 1930s, like you said the Nazis recruited Communists where convenient.

So for example in Australia you have communist/socialist tactics pushing LGBTQI constantly in the name of "equality". Even though its impossible for everyone to be equal. We have "hate" laws which mean if you publicly state a dislike for any kind of lifestyle, you can be charged with a crime and sent to jail. This makes people self censor their honest thoughts. It's totalitarian.

We also have Fascistic totalitarianism. Fascism involves government collaborating with large corporations to oppress people and control them. Well that's exactly what happened in Australia during Covid. Big Pharma worked with AusGov to force people into getting one kind of treatment, their vaccine and banning other treatments. People lost jobs, freedom of movement (including not being able to be with dying loved ones – children included) and other civil rights if they didn't comply.

So yeah.

@Ned Ludd – Absolutely on your comments and Yes, I was about to post the same thing about Russia and its neighbors.

I think we should do a count of invasions by Russia and the USA since 1989 and the end of the Cold War.

USA I count: Panama, Iraq, Somalia, Bosnia, Haiti, Afghanistan, Iraq again, Syria, Libya (special forces and air support). So 9?

Russia, let's see. Transnistria, Abkhazia, Chechnya, Chechnya again, Georgia, Ukraine/Crimea, Ukraine proper. So 7?

By my count USA is winning in the "that's just what they do" race.

By the way I have no issue with any US invasion (except Libya), I think they were all justified and its what great powers do. However, I also have no issue with another great power Russia protecting its interests in the same way. Competetion of nations is what makes countries and people progress and become better. Hopefully neighbors can be friends and have mutually beneficial relationships which both the US and Russia encourage, but if you threaten a great nations interests, guess what? You're gonna find out what happens. Great militaries and nations aren't great for no reason and they didn't become great by letting their neighbors dictate to them.

I guess I also can't stand hypocrisy. If you call out Russia for being invasion enthusiasts but don't call out the US just as much then you are a hypocrite and a deluded and mind controlled Russophobe, exactly what your leaders want you to be as we march towards a very much avoidable World War 3.

"Did Ukraine Bandera fans have a right to ethnically cleanse areas of Ukraine after 2014? Did Ukraine have a right to shell innocent Russians in the Donbas before the invasion?"

Did these people have a right to shell innocent Ukrainians in the Donbas, the shells went both ways, with Russian help,

Tally Ho!

Hi nick! Thanks for admitting that there are likely attrocities on both sides. That's rare on TMP regarding the Ukraine War. Maybe people are finally opening up to the truth more here?

MILEFFEX

how many Russian invasions came with a UN mandate?

Tally Ho!

Nick, I don't know but we all know how adorable and innocent the UN is. See UNRWA

Well said, Korsun0. The Can'tberran is a bit controversial, but that does not invalidate his right to express his opinions.

I also understand that you decide to support a compatriot…

I don't think that's what Jon was doing, Armand. It's more to do with, as he says, not liking "pile ons".

As for Putin's motivation being "fascism", that's just the usual political, BS excuse. Fascism/communism/socialism/nazism- to me they're all slightly different shades of the same colour. They are mainly used to detrimentally label "The Enemy" or someone whose views/politics you don't like. Any philosophical* differences are just window dressing, so any real differences have to be stressed in an attempt to convince people they aren't all basically the same thing (and so people in universities and wargames fora can have something to argue about).

*Or supposed economic differences. In reality the a-hole in charge has the biggest bank account and personal power, regardless of which "ism" you pick.

@Dal I like "Can'tberra", very fitting. I can think of another name for the place, you just have to keep the t and replace the "a" with a "u".

Yep basically with you. Escpecially these days. "Fascist"/"Communist" are labels for an enemy that extremists will ironically use Fascist/Communist stategies to destroy.

It's a sad state of our hobby (or perhaps of the world) that the only posts on a website titled The Miniatures Page" that consistently get double digit posts are politically charged mud slinging (which I admit to have unfortunately let myself get dragged into).

It's a shame because I've seen alot of the same posters painting, gaming and hobby knowledge and it's collectively incredibly impressive.

Absolutely, Prince Alberts Revenge.

@Herkybird.

"Belief that they are the Master Race
Intolerance of opposing views and minorities."

Pretty funny since the Russian Army seems a lot more "diverse" than the Ukranian.

@OldContempable -- you've bought into the CYA revisionism of the Left. I thought that Facism was "Right Wing" up until college when I was taking a course on 20th century western history. We were studying the rise of the great dictators -- Stalin, Hitler and Mussolini. After studying Stalin, the professor led us through an examination of Mussolini's rise to power.

Mussolini, as it turns out, was a fervent believer in The Socialist International until WW1. Mussolini, the founder of Fascism, was born and raised into a family of committed Socialists and was very active as a Marxist in his youth.

He was a committed Socialist and a leader of the International in Italy. He was the editor of "Avanti!," Italy's leading Socialist/Progressive newspaper. Btw, Avanti was companioned in Germany by the Progressive newspaper "Vorwarts" with which he was in steady contact. He hated Capitalism and Liberal Democracy as obstacles to The Revolution. However, he was discouraged at the progress of Socialism in Italy and became disillusioned with the International (Socialist movement), since if it were true, then the workers of the world would have been united by class and not fought WW1. Instead, German socialists fought for Germany, and British socialists for Britain, etc.

He also saw during WW1 that in the trenches there was no class distinction. Rich, poor, educated and ignorant were all equal in the mud -- they were reduced to being Italians serving the State, first and foremost. That's the vision he had for Socialism in Italy, all Italians serving the State.

He felt there needed to be an *Italian* Socialism for Italians, the International movement would not work in Italy, and indeed had already failed as proven by WW1.

So he connected with other disillusioned Marxists and Socialist thinkers, like Giovanni Gentile, to create an alternative to Internationalist Communist Socialism -- a new form *national* Socialist movement they ended up calling "Fascism" -- named after the baton of power wielded by an ancient Roman field general or consul, the Fasces. This was a rod fashioned of small sticks, bound together to be strong -- representing the different interests of Rome working as one.

Fascism's "sticks" were comprised of Socialist groups and Labor Unions. The controlling core economic principle was Corporatism -- the control of the economy and thus the nation via control over industrial leaders and the Unions. Rather than seize corporations and appoint ignorant yet politically loyal Party members to run them from the State, as in Communism, Fascism controlled industry by co-opting and forcing industrial leaders to bend to the will of the Socialist State and become part of the ruling party structure.

The working class was led and controlled by the State through the Unions. So under Corporatism, companies and labor Unions become part of the State's power apparatus -- those Unions and companies that did not bend to the will of the State were crushed. These were primarily Communist-aligned, and the Fascist Socialists fought the Communist Socialists for control much as how Stalinists and Trotskyites fought for control of their Communist movement.

Property was also allowed so long as it didn't conflict with the needs of the State, and the Individual was subordinate to the needs of the State -- true freedom, according to Mussolini, came from the surrender of the Individual to the State. So, I asked my professor --Mussolini was a Socialist, embraced Socialism, saw Capitalism as the Enemy, and created a State-controlled society with the Individual subordinate to the needs of the State. How does that make him "Right Wing?"

Why, Nationalism, of course, he said.

However, I said, we'd just studied Stalin and the rise of the Communists to power, and they resorted to heavy ethnic and nationalist appeals in their propaganda wars. So why is it different in Italy?

Why, because it's Fascism! He had a closed-loop argument, he got very angry that he couldn't explain why Italian Nationalism in the service of a Socialist movement was different from Russian Nationalism in the service of a Socialist movement -- it just was, so stop being stupid, he told me! After that my professor would take opportunities in class to harangue me, slight me, and tried to embarrass me in front of my peers to silence me. Wow. That was an eye opener.

Fascism and Communism are two sides of the same coin, they are both Statist, Socialist systems.

Communist and fascist are two sides of the same coin. Some point to the differences, however, the end result is the same. The government is all and the citizens are nothing.

BTW, when you say the state owns the means of production, it includes the workers. To dumb it down for some folks, that's slavery.

@SBMinisGuy excellent details and assessment. Not just saying that coz I agree, but you bring a lot more actual facts and detailed reality to the argument than @Oldcontemptible

damn…04:22 here, gotta sleep…

Old Contempt,

You are dead on. +15! Keep it coming.

I have often asked Political Science professors with PhD's in their field is Nazism a left political idea and they break out laughing. Nazism is fascism which is a right wing political idea.

The extreme right and left are different in some respects (Hitler never took over big industries rather he simply co-opted Krupp, Thyssen, IG Farben etc. and the Nazi's actually loosened private gun ownership) while the communists strictly limited gun ownership wherever they could and took over all industry) but the desire/need to control the citizenry by violence or threat was/is certainly a common behavior of both. Communism certainly is fairly aggressively anti-religion while Fascism is happy to use it where helpful. The Theocracies such as Iran are certainly more Fascist than Communist in character as industry remains mostly private while religious fanaticism is another form of population dominance by violence or threat.

The Ukraine certainly has Nazi's/fascists whatever you want to call them but so does virtually every democracy and anyone who thinks Zelensky is an actual fascist is simply silly. The war in Ukraine can end in an instant if Russia gives back the land stolen since 2022 (I even think Crimea is likely lost).

Since Russia seems to arrest every US citizen who foolishly enters their country, does that count as oppressing native English speakers? Is that a legitimate pretext for massive Ukraine aid far in excess of that already provided? Can we give them much longer ranged missiles and many more artillery tubes?

@Grattan54

I have often asked Political Science professors with PhD's in their field is Nazism a left political idea and they break out laughing. Nazism is fascism which is a right wing political idea.

Yes -- and then ASK THEM TO EXPLAIN! And be critical in thought and discussion, and you will find as I did that they have a tautology rather an argument based on evidence and reason.

Ask something like WHY did Mussolini go from being a Leftist Communist to "Right Wing"?

WHY is the core of Fascism's STATE control of the economy via cooption and coercion different from Communism's STATE control of the economy by direct control?

WHY is Soviet Russian nationalism to promote Communism that different from Fascist Italian nationalism? The Soviets were going to create the "New Soviet Man" to elevate "The Motherland" and the Italians were going to create "The New Man" to elevate "Nova Roma." How are those so different that the Soviet version is "Left Wing" and the Italian version is "Right Wing?"

And then ask them to define "Right Wing" and watch them talk in circles when you ask critical questions to get to clarity. I asked these questions in earnest – I wanted to know, and all my professor with a PhD could do is talk in circles.

This is really important -- if you can't really define something you can't recognize it and fight it properly! I would argue that the US is drifting into classic fascism under the current leadership, all the hallmarks of Corporatism, State Control and State Coercion are there…if you can recognize it…

Honest question, does it really matter whether Nazism is left or right? If so why?

does it really matter whether Nazism is left or right? If so why?

Not really. Authoritarianism exists on both the extreme left and right to the point where both are mostly indistinguishable if equally vile.

Modern Russia is without a doubt an authoritarian dystopia. Dissent is jailed if not accidentally fallen out of a window, economic favors are distributed by sycophancy (with a resultant loss of innovation and efficiency) and elections are conducted only after any opposing voices are jailed or if lucky, suppressed. I would argue that it is far closer to Fascist than Communist in that religion is an active tool of the state and industry is private but co-opted. The apparatus of repression is similar be it Communist or Fascist.

Dear Korsun0 … I am extremely saddened not to have more comments from you on any of my threads… I hope that in the future you will be able to post one that is of interest to you and there I could enjoy some of your comments there…

You don't need to apologize for anything… no harm here… I recognize that every war makes my blood boil… having suffered one marked my rejection of all of them… in the case of Ukraine… for Being so big and with rivets from WW2 and how it started affects me much more… apologies if sometimes I exaggerate my opinion…

On the other hand, I would like to highlight the comment of our fellow member Prince Alberts Revenge because I completely agree… in recent years it seems that posting real wargames in any forum barely gets more than a hundred visits and in the vast majority no comments or barely any… two if you are lucky… when if it is about some controversial topic like in Ultramodern you can easily sixfold that figure…. not to mention the "Gallery" part… almost no one seems to care about the work done by colleagues in the hobby…

I dare to suggest that our Editor allows a small increase in the number of posts per day (maybe 9?) because the new threads have decreased so much that it seems to me that people no longer visit TMP like before… on the other hand… It is frustrating to see that our editor posts 10 or more threads per day when the rest cannot do so and I consider that this may cause desertions in the daily visit to this medium…At least that's what I've discussed with several former TMP members…

Armand

"US is drifting into classic fascism under the current leadership"

Uh oh! Lets hope the other guy gets back in then!

Not really. Authoritarianism exists on both the extreme left and right to the point where both are mostly indistinguishable if equally vile.

Yes, really. If you don't know where it comes from you can't combat it. And of the two, Authoritarianism is more tolerable tyranny since at least there's no effort to recreate human nature or control what you do as long as you don't threaten their power. Authoritarians want their power and cash, but for example, otherwise don't care what music you listen to as long as it doesn't threaten them. Putin is an Authoritarian -- he didn't care, for example, what the Russian punk group "Pussy Riot" sang until they criticized him, then he arrested them. Just old fashioned oppression.

Totalitarians like Xi, on the other hand, want to change human nature and expend great resources on thought control and social controls, and on promoting their ideology into all strata of society from the classroom to the bathroom. And based on how China actually works, they are more Fascist than Communist despite the label.

I would argue that it is far closer to Fascist than Communist in that religion is an active tool of the state and industry is private but co-opted.

I disagree. Fascism like its evil twin Communism, is ideologically totalitarian. That sets it apart from old fashioned Authoritarianism -- which can include many nations ruled by history's Kings, Queens and Emperors.

"US is drifting into classic fascism under the current leadership"

Uh oh! Lets hope the other guy gets back in then!

At least he was a speedbump -- the trend predates the current POTUS, stretching back to the 1990s.

MilEFEX3030, there are "leftists" – and there are "leftists". I also consider myself a "leftist," but what the leftist movement in the West has now developed into makes me dumbfounded and disgusted. For me, leftist ideology is exclusively economics. Otherwise, I'm a dense conservative)))
For me, the Nazis are an abomination and the devil, fascism is the dictatorship of capitalists and imperialists, nationalists – behind this word there can be completely different phenomena. Nationalism can be beautiful when it is aimed at developing the distinctive culture of a people, and disgusting when it is aimed at suppressing people of a different nationality.

Old Contemptible, beautifully stated!

SBminisguy, socialism is just a form. Tool. But it is used to achieve different purposes.
Moreover, communists and socialists are not monolithic. They have extremely diverse views on the path by which society should reach communism. There are supporters of violent actions (revolution) and there are supporters of educating a person with a new morality (evolution). By the way, the ideals of this part of the communists practically coincide with the ideals of the Christian religion. Including in terms of non-violence.
"Soviet man" is a creative person, a person without racial, national, class and other destructive prejudices. A man of the Earth, on which there are no longer states and borders that artificially separate people and the interests of all humanity.
The "New Roman" or Nazi "superman" implies the presence of lower forms of people who were not lucky enough to be born into the correct community or with the correct skull shape)))
In my opinion, the whole world is now sliding towards classical fascism. Democracy is dying. And this is natural in times of crisis, and the crisis is growing very serious, perhaps worse than the Great Depression. Usually capitalism finds a way out of a crisis in a big war – destroying a huge amount of material assets and "surplus population". There is a redistribution of resources and player roles. From the ashes comes new growth – for a while…

The punk group "Pussy Riot" outraged the feelings of believers by invading the main temple of Moscow and staging a disgusting "performance" there. It doesn't matter what they sang (no one had ever noticed them before this event). It was just hype and a desire to make money on it, which they did very well… In Russia there are many musical groups performing "anti-government" music – and no one cares about them, except for a small number of their fans.

China is, first of all, an ancient empire with its own traditions and culture, and then everything else. And these traditions and culture of each country will always dominate, no matter under communism, capitalism or any other system…

MilEFEX3030, in your photo the black military personnel in the metro are most likely military students from Africa (probably) studying in Russian military schools. Not Russian servicemen.

This is really one of the Russian guys of African descent fighting in Ukraine. Judging by the badges and awards, he serves in the Airborne Forces, has two wounds, one of them serious, and has proven himself well in battle. Black Russians are a rare phenomenon, but nevertheless they exist.

McKinstry, some Americans (like other English-speaking people) have been living quietly in Russia for a long time and no one oppresses them. For example, here is one, a former American soldier:
link

And here is a song for you by a Russian soldier, Bashkir by nationality. The song is called "Your Christ and my Allah":

link

And we are conducting reconnaissance in force
Ivan, Shamil and Salavat
You step away, I'll cover you
Don't be afraid, we are with you, brother.
You move away, I'll cover you.
We are with you until the end, brother.

We have a fighting brotherhood here.
We inspire fear in our enemies.
And like wings behind my back
Both your Christ and my Allah.

They don't care about nationality
Bashkir, you Tatar, Buryat,
We all have a Russian mentality
To the enemy, we are Russian soldiers.

And just like once in '45,
We will not stand behind the price.
Ordinary Russian soldiers
They are saving the world from fascism.

And on earth washed by the rain
And somewhere there, in heaven
They will cover us with their protection
Both your Christ and my Allah.

And we are conducting reconnaissance in force
Ivan, Shamil and Salavat
You step away, I'll cover you
Don't be afraid, we are with you, brother.
You move away, I'll cover you.
We are with you until the end, brother

Several instances exist where socialists transitioned into fascists, with Pierre Laval in France being a notable example. Various motivations drive this transformation, such as a craving for power and a desire for revenge due to political exile. Some individuals perceive joining the right-wing movement as beneficial for their well-being.

Regardless of interpretation, Nazism resides firmly on the extreme right of the political spectrum. Historians consistently refute assertions that Hitler subscribed to socialist principles.

Historian Richard Evans, discussing the Nazis' adoption of "socialist" in their name in 1920, clarified, "Nazism was in some ways an extreme counter-ideology to socialism." Echoing this sentiment, Hitler expert Ian Kershaw succinctly stated, "Hitler was never a socialist."

Nazism resides firmly on the extreme right of the political spectrum.

What do experts know? /S… Its about nothing bad ever happening on the right-hand side of the spectrum. All the bad is on the left, always, and it will destroooooooy the West.

This is really important -- if you can't really define something you can't recognize it and fight it properly! I would argue that the US is drifting into classic fascism under the current leadership, all the hallmarks of Corporatism, State Control and State Coercion are there…if you can recognize it…

A couple of opinions here. I am not about to to disavow the long and widely held definition of facism as a far right ideology. Others can disagree. ROU, you are correct that sweeping all the negatives over to the left does not reflect reality. I cannot recall any history professor of mine who would somehow lump communism, socialism, and fascism under one leftist bogeyman banner. But the threat of too much government, too much corruption, charlatanism, is real.

I have just skimmed through a summary some of the Heritage Foundation's lengthy plan for a conservative America and it sounds like installing loyal political operatives to take over the so called Deep State is more about grabbing even more power for the right than fixing the imbalances that threaten us. So..not the same conservativism we grew up with.

Both sides share blame and only both can fix it. But they won't until the right stuff comes along to lead and that ain't happening anytime soon.

End of opinion. Take me away..

These communists vs. fascists threads remind me of an old joke:

"An alcoholic is someone who drinks like you that you don't like".

It seems that only folks on the left will take the position that they are not more alike than different.

Inevitably, someone brings up the ideal communist state and says it just has not been done right yet.

To them, I would suggest that they get on their roof, flap their arms, and jump off. That method of flight has yet to be done right as well.

Nobody here has brought that up lately that I recall.. If you read Marx, which I slogged through in college, I think you would be hard pressed to use it as a practical guide, but it makes good widow dressing for dictators.

If any thinks they can read Marx and successfully govern with it, I would like too hear how that works.

Regardless of interpretation, Nazism resides firmly on the extreme right of the political spectrum. Historians consistently refute assertions that Hitler subscribed to socialist principles.

LOL! Sure, but when you ask them to really explain and ask critical questions they end up as my professor did spinning around in a tautology. It is because it is!! When you examine the roots of Fascism, who created that ideology, you see something clearly emerge.

* First came Socialism as an ideology.

* Then came Communism as an expression of Socialism. People wanted to implement Socialism and tried various methods, until Karl Marx came along and said "THIS is how you implement Socialism -- my idea on how to do it is called Communism!" People who latched onto this path to deliver Socialism called themselves Marxists and Communists.

*Then came Fascism as an expression of Socialism. When Communism failed to deliver on its promises, some Marxists said, "THIS is how you implement Socialism -- the International (Communism) doesn't work on a global scale, but you can do Socialism on a national scale -- so we call this National Socialism, or Fascism!" All of the Fascist thinkers were Marxists and Socialists.

I think it's just because Leftist ideologues don't want to take responsibility for their beloved Socialism resulting in both Communism AND Fascism. And btw, Communism has a much higher body count than Fascism, with some 120 MILLION dead because of Communist regimes -- so a rational person should be just as disgusted at Communism as they are at Fascism.

@Cuprum

SBminisguy, socialism is just a form. Tool. But it is used to achieve different purposes.

No -- they end up with the same result. Control. You have a self-annointed class of Neo-Aristocrats who dominate everybody else as a new class of defacto Serfs. That's how it has always ended up, and given immutable human nature how it always will. I remember talking to a Leftist at an Occupy encampment and she waxed poetic about the utopia that Socialism will produce, and when asked fell back on the "It just hasn't been done right yet" argument. So I asked her -- are so much smarter than Lenin and Stalin? Mao and Castro -- that YOU would get it right where they failed? That just pissed her off. And she couldn't even recognize her own anger and desire to get back what she'd lost as a motivator. Turns out she was the daughter of East German political apparatchiks, and when Germany unified they post their social position and privileges within DDR society. As the daughter of party loyalists she got to go to better schools, her family had a better house and a car, they had a vacation home and got to shop at better stores.

So she was a petty Aristo and wants it back, and so America sucks and must fall and be replaced by her dream society. No thank you!

"Play the ball not the man! Once again when some are presented with facts they just can not deal with it and have to retreat to the safe space they are comfortable in.--Ned Ludd

Are you entertained or bored Nedd? either way you are still a hyprocrite…

TMP link