"Avancierfahne 1st West Prussian 1813" Topic

I was curious to see if anyone can confirm an issue with the Avancierfahne (Kings Colour if you will) for this infantry regiment. I have the Osprey book 'Flags of the Napoleonic Wars' which states the centre is white, however most of the images I've seen, from commercial sellers for example, show this as green. Is there any confirmation available one way or the other? TBH I quite like the green version, so if the sources are conflicting, I'll probably go with that, but it would be nice to be accurate if possible.

Heer und Tradition shows a white centre, with the standard originating from Infantry Regiment "Reinhardt Nr 52".

Following my earlier post, I have now looked at Peter Bunde's Uniformtafel Nr. 151 – it shows a green centre!

Digby-Smith's book on the Prussian army gives a dark green centre.

Keith Over's "Flags and Standards of the Napoleonic Wars" has dark green centre; which coincides with IR Nr 52, so on this basis I would go with dark green centre.

Geschichte der Preußischen Fahnen und Standarten, vol. 1, p. 184, gives for IR 52 (1806: von Reinhart):

Leibfahne (used after the reduction to four flags per regiment in 1787 as the Avancirfahne for the 1st battalion): white, with poppy red flame cross, dark green centre shield, the band with devise was white.

Regimentsfahnen (used as Avancirfahne for the 2nd battalion and as Retirfahne for both battalions): green, with poppy red flame cross, white centre shield, the band with devise was green.

In 1813-15 (the number of flags actually to be carried had been reduced to two in 1811), the first battalion carried the Leibfahne and the 2nd battalion a Regimentsfahne.

And Nash's The Prussian Army: 1808-1815 (Almark: 1972) states the 1st Battalion carried a flag (the Advancier or Liebfahne) with a white field and white center and red cross while the 2nd Battalion carried a flag (Retririerfahne) with a green field, white center, and red cross.

But the NapFlag site ( link ) shows the 1st Battalion with a white field, green center, and small red wavy cross and the 2nd Battalion with "reversed" field and center colors.

So ….

Jim

You should follow the information of Oliver, as he quotes the comprehensive work about the Prussian flags and standards, all other sources not equal to this description are (very!) probably false.

And in case you're searching for the colors of the old Prussian infantry flags, you may visit my site at link

Greetings from Berlin
Markus Stein

I agree with Markus & Oliver as I believe the Osprey by Terry Wise used Nash's tables as the source for his Prussian flags. Unfortunately Nash doesn't have a bibliography to allow an attempt to cross check information sources. he only mentions the names of individuals.

To sum up, we know that the flags from von Reinhardt's Regiment were issued to the 1st West Prussian Line Infantry Regiment. This had a dark green centre and red wavy cross so is the model for the the Advancier or Liebfahne. So use the second row at link

Just to clarify: There are four denominations for the colours or flags [Infanterie-Fahne]:

Leib-Fahne and Regiments-Fahne refers to the design. Only one Leib-Fahne per regiment, its base colour was white. This originated from the times when each company had a flag, and the Leib-Fahne was carried in the Leib-Kompanie (company of the regimental chief). The other companies carried a Regiments-Fahne each.

Avancir-Fahne and Retirir-Fahne refers to the position of the flag, after their number was reduced to two per battalion in 1787. Both flags were behind each other, in the centre of the battalion. The Avancir-Fahne in front, the Retirir-Fahne behind it. The latter got its name because when the regiment made a right about face, in order to retreat, this flag would be in the front.

Very good information by Oliver Schmidt and Prince of Essling, for a side note – it is Leibfahne, as in Leibkompanie or Leibregiment and not the usual Liebfahne as in lovecolour

@ vW – sorry English habit due to having been taught "i before e except after c"! Must try and do better….

Just for the small print about pronunciation, ei is pronounced like the i as in life – ie is as the double e in keep, it is depressing the listen to podcasts where professional historians, professors of history don't care how to pronounce names, and all is anglicised – the worst so far Thielmann – th as in English th instead of a t, ie of course as i as in life and mann, as in man instead as like in mom thileman.

Speaking as someone who is lucky to have mastered English, much less a foreign language (and believe me, I tried), I won't condemn any person who mispronounces foreign words. There are only so many hours in the day, learning the nuances of every language on Earth that participated in a war seems unreasonable.

I think people should give some effort, at least when they are transmitting the result of their research by spoken word. Just to prevent that their audience is ridiculed when they copy the wrong pronounciation.

What would you think if I as a German talk about the E--arl ("E" similar to as in: ever) off Ooksbritt'ghe, commanding the British cavalry under Wellington ?

For correct pronounciation it is not necessary to learn the grammar or any word of the foreign langguage. Of course, a native accent still is nearly inevitable.

And no need to train Chinese or Zulu pronounciation when dealing with European wars only ;-)

So Europe only? Then I need to learn how to pronounce French, Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, Swiss, German, Danish, Dutch, Swedish, Russian, Turkish and Hungarian. That makes it easier.

indeed, this is the fun, no need to be fluent – just pronouncing the names of important generals, battles, towns, in case you are doing a podcast or a video

Gentlemen, thank you all very much for your generous responses, it really is very much appreciated. As the information provided seems to be pretty clear that the centre was indeed green, that's what I've gone with. I would have replied earlier, however as a new member, I wasn't aware that I could post a question, but would then have to wait three days before I could post again! Still, no matter, I'm pleased to be part of such a knowledgably group. Many thanks.