"Ukraine is losing" Topic

My point is obviously that many here have a Russophobic hypocritical double standard and easily fall into the media trap of oversimplifying things and ignoring context in the case of Russia – exactly what the system wants you to do, have a simple blinkered view. Then you're easier to control.

Do I like Putin? Nope. I'm sure he gives no F's about me either. He does look after the interests of Russians though, is a nationalist and is extremely popular there. I do admire that situation. I wish my leaders gave more of a about me and my compatriots than they do about membership in and pats on the head from the UN, WEF or WHO or in supporting a corrupt country Australians have no connection to or interesting in (Ukraine).

MilEFEX3030 you are a hundred percent correct. I wish I could have put it so succinctly.

Does anyone know about OPLAN-316 and the thousands of Marines, soldiers and sailors that were training to invade Cuba if negotiations with Kruschev had fallen through in '62?

We briefly talked about it at US Army Infantry Advanced Course, and IIRC at Combined Arms School.

Does anyone know what happened when Cuban engineers helped build a stategic bomber runway in Grenada?

Yes I was with the US Army's 2ID in the ROK, on the DMZ IIRC …

Does anyone know what happened when the security of the Panama Canal zone was threatened?

Yes I was at Ft. Benning, GA. IIRC the RANGER Bn there jumped in. It was considered a combat jump and they all got a gold star on their wings. And Combat Infantryman's Badge …

Does anyone know what happened when terrorists holed up in Afghanistan supported strikes on America that killed thousands?

I was out of the Army by then. About 4 weeks after the 9/11 attack in NYC killing over 200 civilians. The US ARMY, USAF, USN and USMC plus some allies invaded A'stan. And in a few months had killed off many AQ and Taliban. For attacking the USA, etc. The US mostly left after significantly attriting AQ and the Taliban.

Relying on the A'stan Gov't to keep the terrorists down if they try to go on jihad, etc. The ANA/ANP and the Gov't leadership couldn't control all the warlords, various tribal factions, etc. AQ and the Taliban grew and well … the US and allies had to go back. We know the rest of the story.

Does anyone know anything about how the world works and how major powers look after their own interests or do you truly just simply believe "Ukraine: Good", "Russia: Bad"?

I believe I have a fairly good working knowledge of how the world works. And yes, I was in the Army '79-'90, during the Cold War. We saw the Russians and the Warsaw Pact as the enemy. And spend much of our time training to go to war to stop them from going deeper into Europe if the crossed the IGB. Interestingly many of the former now defunct WP are members of NATO …

We also trained in Panama at Jungle Warfare School. My Bn in the 101 deployed there 3 times. We became part of the Canal Zone Defense Force to prevent anyone from attacking the Canal. 3 Russian spy trawlers were off the coast monitoring and jamming our radio traffic, gathering intel, etc.

Then was with the 2ID, in the ROK preparing to defend then counterattack if the North Koreans crossed the DMZ. Had 22 months and two tours on the DMZ. Some of the best soldiering I did in the Army.

Followed by back to Ft. Benning assigned to a Mech Hvy Bde. part of the 18th ABN Corps. And continued to train to fight the USSR/WP. Even sent most of the Bde to [West] Germany for A big NATO FTX – REFORGER '88 IIRC. I commanded an M113 Mech Co. at that time. We ran training ops to wargame what to do if the USSR/WP crossed the IGB.

I know I may have not answered all those questions, but I posted what I knew …

Russia simply can't win a war against Europe. The mathematics are inexorable

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Black Sea Successes and Ukraine's Path to Victory

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Armand

"Russia simply can't win a war against Europe. The mathematics are inexorable"

The problem the governments will have. Is that unlike in the Great War that this type of rhetoric reminds me of, ie who will run out of men first. Is that its only the governments and their backers that want a war with russia. The people, the normal people of the eu dont want war with russia, will not go to war, will not send their sons to war. So all these (elites) and their lackies will find there wont be anyone to fight their war after the regulars have been sacrificed. So Frau genocide, jungle George and all their cronies will have to put a shift in themselves and I can not see that happening.

Ned Ludd- I don't believe anybody in the west wants a war with Russia….not governments nor their lackies. It would be a disaster & they know it. The west will NEVER attack Russia (counter-attack, maybe)

"The west will NEVER attack Russia (counter-attack, maybe)"

Yes, one has to ask why would we? It is the rhetoric coming from putin and his cronies about re-establishing old Cold War boundaries etc, to safeguard Russia's borders of course, that is the worry. They, thankfully, not strong enough, but remain mad as a box of frogs so might give it a go!

Personally, I think that Sweden should push to re-establish it's rule of Muscovy as they did a few centuries ago!

Tally Ho!

Dolphinless +1

Nick +1

Yes, NATO was designed for the defense of Europe. The OPLANs only had NATO reestablish the IGB. No drive on Moscow …

FWIW – When I was in the ROK, with the 2ID, if the North Koreans attacked crossed the DMZ. The US/ROK and hopefully UN Forces were to counterattack and drive on to Pyongyang and beyond.

Regardless, in both theaters, in Western Europe and Korea. NATO in the ETO and the US Forces and the ROKA in South Korea. Had to be ready to do their respective missions. And even when we deployed to the Panama to protect the Canal Zone

Having served in all those locations and in CONUS, we trained and prepped to be ready if war broke out. All the time. We all know based on history what happens to nations/forces that are not trained and ready to go to war. Even if some of our elected and appointed leaders don't remember history, at times.

What did that IIRC old Roman say, "Pray for Peace, but prepare for war." ?

The sanctions are really biting home in russia.

YouTube link

"Pray for Peace, but prepare for war."

Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.

It is in my signature for every email I send.

Damon.

I like that Damon … good choice … 👍👍

" I don't believe anybody in the west wants a war with Russia….not governments nor their lackies"

It has already been admitted that the uk is in a proxy war with Russia by a uk politician.

They are working hard to convince the western public that they should be getting ready to fight against russia. The public are uninterested in their war plans. The us establishment loves war and the eu lackies will have to do as they are told,

They are working hard to convince the western public that they should be getting ready to fight against russia.

That makes no sense to me as an American. Or probably any NATO members either. Sounds more like propaganda or someone misinformed or who has an agenda.

The us establishment loves war and the eu lackies will have to do as they are told,

Again that sounds more like propaganda or someone who is very misinformed …

I don't think you have any real concept, idea of anything about the West wanting war with Russia and vis versa.

Short answer – It ani't gonna happen ! Leave your Kool aid at the door.

Are you really going with the US establishment wants another war ? You obviously don't live in the USA. Or know what is really going on in DC, the streets of the USA, etc.

I have sort of a good working knowledge about this talking with Ret US 0-5s, 0-6s, etc. often. And listening to Ret US 0-5s, 0-6s, and 0-7s in the media. There are no plans for the West to attack Russia. Anything else is narrative & agenda driven by the uninformed or misinformed.

Of course, IF the West was going to war with Russia, it would be classified. But once large troop landings in Western Europe. Then moving towards the NATO nations that border Russia … well … even the Russians are not that incompetent not to notice. And IF one remembers how long it took to get the massive numbers of US Forces to the Mid-East for Desert Storm, and GWII plus A'stan. Well … it would take months …

News Flash : No one, none of Ret Officers ever mention anything about going to war with Russia. It appears that you really don't understand how that would work and drank the Putin Kool aid. You appear to be blinded by your misinformation and anti-USA-phobia. Again, you really have no idea what is going on in the US streets, US gov't and the reality of the situation.

Russia is using SpaceX's Starlink satellite devices in Ukraine, sources say

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Armand

"I don't think you have any real concept, idea of anything about the West wanting war with Russia and vis versa"

After just a quick search look what turns up.

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Here is a bit of good news.
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The whole conscription-thing was faintly ridiculous and probably largely media generated. The first link is post-Salisbury where Putin's Russia used a chemical weapon on another sovereign states soil. Wars have been started for less…

Though perhaps most hilarious of all is the idea that in the massively unlikely event of NATO versus Russia we'd get to the point of actually needing conscription…. And no I'm not talking about the nuclear war.

The more recent call for conscription was I think a vailed sounding of public opinion on the subject. The whole situation is ridiculous, along with the people calling for it. They seem to be under the impression it would be a re run of 1944. They seem to conveniently forget about the nuclear weapons involved. Besides that imagine been sent to war by the likes of Mogg boris and truss. Brits sent to war while immigrants cross the channel and get put up in hotels. Its like some sort of parody.

Nobody in the West WANTS a war with Russia. Some in the West are preparing defences against future Russian aggression. After Georgia, Moldova, Crimea and the rest of Ukraine, it is NATO members that will be next. At that point the West will DEFEND against Russian Imperialism.

Plenty of people want a war with Russia @Dagwood. Check Boris

YouTube link

The more recent call for conscription was I think a vailed sounding of public opinion on the subject.

My take is it was meant to open a public debate on the possibilities of a citizen army supplementing to some extent the UKs traditional professional force.

As for issue of immigrants in UK politics that's largely the fault of the incumbent government with a dollop of ill-informed stupid from the electorate.

But as it stands the under funded, under manned, they/them NATO army would still ROFLstomp Putin's conventional military before we got anywhere near conscription.

Does anyone know about OPLAN-316 and the thousands of Marines, soldiers and sailors that were training to invade Cuba if negotiations with Kruschev had fallen through in '62?
We briefly talked about it at US Army Infantry Advanced Course, and IIRC at Combined Arms School
Does anyone know what happened when Cuban engineers helped build a stategic bomber runway in Grenada?
Yes I was with the US Army's 2ID in the ROK, on the DMZ IIRC …
Does anyone know what happened when the security of the Panama Canal zone was threatened?
Yes I was at Ft. Benning, GA. IIRC the RANGER Bn there jumped in. It was considered a combat jump and they all got a gold star on their wings. And Combat Infantryman's Badge …
Does anyone know what happened when terrorists holed up in Afghanistan supported strikes on America that killed thousands?
I was out of the Army by then. About 4 weeks after the 9/11 attack in NYC killing over 200 civilians. The US ARMY, USAF, USN and USMC plus some allies invaded A'stan. And in a few months had killed off many AQ and Taliban. For attacking the USA, etc. The US mostly left after significantly attriting AQ and the Taliban.
Relying on the A'stan Gov't to keep the terrorists down if they try to go on jihad, etc. The ANA/ANP and the Gov't leadership couldn't control all the warlords, various tribal factions, etc. AQ and the Taliban grew and well … the US and allies had to go back. We know the rest of the story.

Does anyone know anything about how the world works and how major powers look after their own interests or do you truly just simply believe "Ukraine: Good", "Russia: Bad"?
I believe I have a fairly good working knowledge of how the world works. And yes, I was in the Army '79-'90, during the Cold War. We saw the Russians and the Warsaw Pact as the enemy. And spend much of our time training to go to war to stop them from going deeper into Europe if the crossed the IGB. Interestingly many of the former now defunct WP are members of NATO …

We also trained in Panama at Jungle Warfare School. My Bn in the 101 deployed there 3 times. We became part of the Canal Zone Defense Force to prevent anyone from attacking the Canal. 3 Russian spy trawlers were off the coast monitoring and jamming our radio traffic, gathering intel, etc.
Then was with the 2ID, in the ROK preparing to defend then counterattack if the North Koreans crossed the DMZ. Had 22 months and two tours on the DMZ. Some of the best soldiering I did in the Army.

Followed by back to Ft. Benning assigned to a Mech Hvy Bde. part of the 18th ABN Corps. And continued to train to fight the USSR/WP. Even sent most of the Bde to [West] Germany for A big NATO FTX – REFORGER '88 IIRC. I commanded an M113 Mech Co. at that time. We ran training ops to wargame what to do if the USSR/WP crossed the IGB.

I know I may have not answered all those questions, but I posted what I knew …

I respect you so much Legion 4. A legit Cold Warrior. Reagan is my all-time hero. I grew up in the USA in the '80s and Reagan was class, all the time and stared down the Soviets. He called a spade a spade (and a Communist a Communist repeatedly and unapologetically!) God Bless Reagan!

However, the Soviets and the Warsaw Pact do not exist anymore. It is the Russians being provoked and goaded by NATO in an extremely ignorant and arrogant way.

Today the world is reversed. What you believed in has been hijacked by Globalist forces who want a world war to force a "reset". Please believe it, please see it. I know its hard but Russia was PROVOKED so obviously into invading Ukraine. They had no other choice, just like Kennedy would have had no other choice but to invade Cuba if Krushchev had not pulled his nukes out, just like Reagan had no other choice but to invade Grenada.

Please see reason. I don't give a F''K about Putin, I have no stake in Russia, but I see a spade as a spade and he has reasons for invading Ukraine, very good ones, one is the encroachment of a Russophobic NATO on his doorstep.

Please see things from another perspective, please do not be blinded by your training and indocrination to hate Russia. The era is different now. Russia has no intention to attack the USA or its true allies, just to protect its own interests, as the USA protects its own interests.

Please see this. Please don't see Russians as sub humans or barbarians. Please see them as equals, not the same as you, but as equals. Otherwise phobic attitudes like yours will permutate WW3 and I, as an Australian with no stake in the USA or Russia will suffer. As will billions.

Please wake up to 2024.

Thank you

I know its hard but Russia was PROVOKED so obviously into invading Ukraine.

Citation needed…. Putin wasn't provoked, he simply doesn't like the the "rules based international" order. He want's spheres of influence back and anyone actually think that's a good idea? Was it justifiable to use a weaponised nerve agent on British soil?

As for the encroachment of NATO on Russia's borders. All those states who joined post-Cold War had the right to self determination and were by and large all victims of Russian/Soviet colonialism. So basically going 'reee' about that shows a total lack of self awareness. Would you criticise African countries for joining an anti-Britain defensive pact?

Ukraine and its people has the right to self-determination end of story, underlined, full stop.

"Ukraine and its people has the right to self-determination end of story, underlined, full stop"

Unfortunately Nuland, the cia and Us government didn't agree with that.

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There is nothing honourable about the struggle in ukrain if you live in the west your government your media has and is lying too you. They care nothing for you and even less about the people in ukrain.

"rules based international" order"

Us, eu, nato expansion Look whats happening to Hungary now, they dont agree to send weapons to uke so they are threatened by the us, eu with economic destruction. That is your International Order. Its rotten, its corrupt, a fake. Wake up.

100% Ned.

It's really interesting how some people just live in a completely fabricated reality they can't break out of. I've always been an outsider in society, weird lookin, no friends, my family won't go near me so maybe because of that I'm less susceptible to propaganda or something? I don't have any stake in any society so I don't feel the need to defend anything about my society?

I think the people who had stable careers and normal prosperous lives are comfortably numb to lies or something?

I would say the people who were awake to the Covid lies have a lot in common with the people who realise that Western forces have inexplicably undermined and attacked Russia for decades since the Cold War.

Oh and if Ukraine isn't losing why did they lose Bakhmut and why are they losing Avdivka? And why did their vaunted offensive go nowhere?

I don't get it, what would losing look like exactly if that isn't losing?

Again, its amazing the ability of many here to suspend their disbelief in the face of so many facts.

They're actually playing the woke game – "My feelings don't care about your facts!"

I respect you so much Legion 4. A legit Cold Warrior.

Well thank you, much appreciated …

It is the Russians being provoked and goaded by NATO in an extremely ignorant and arrogant way.

Well I don't see it that way as after the Cold War was over. NATO downsized their militaries to an amazingly low number. Even when the Western Forces went to the Gulf Wars. Many of those forces were from downsizing NATO nations. But it took years to get to the low levels many in NATO are currently. The US Military has suffered from downsizing, but fortunately didn't start in full force until after the first Gulf War.

But bottom line, IMO: the US and NATO really are not as combat ready as they should be or have the assets they really would need to go to with Russia. Plus, there really is no reason to go to war with them.

Something to note is just like after the Vietnam War the US Military "had to pick itself up by its bootstraps". That long war, huge waste, the Draft, 60,000 + US troops KIA and 3-4 x that WIA, etc. The US Military had to rebuild itself. I was there when that was going on. The Army saw that some changes were and had to be made. And the Draft ended in '72-'73, which I still think was a good thing.

We have the same situation with the US involvement in Iraq, and A'stan. 20+ long years of war with billions spent, many KIAs & more WIAs, etc. Now we have leaders that have other priorities than rebuilding the Military. The list is long, negatively effecting the Military in some ways.

A modern high-tech military is very expensive. That is one reason many of the NATO Militaries are so small. So, IMO the US/NATO are in no condition to go to war. They are still rebuilding after A'stan. And the high cost of modern weapons and training.

Please don't see Russians as sub humans or barbarians.

I don't think of them that way… I know some Russians who live in the USA, etc. But if you think you may going to war it is easy to dehumanize your enemy. It will make it easier to kill them, in large numbers, frequently. The same goes with the North Koreans when I was in the ROK for 22 months. And yes some old habits are hard to break.

I would say the people who were awake to the Covid lies have a lot in common with the people who realise that Western forces have inexplicably undermined and attacked Russia for decades since the Cold War.

They're actually playing the woke game – "My feelings don't care about your facts!"

Yeah…. right…. "special knowledge and insight"…Not being one of the sheeple… I get it.

Legion , Putin apologists are pretty rare within Australia, so take MilEFEX3030 ‘s ravings with a grain of salt.

"Yeah…. right…. "special knowledge and insight"…Not being one of the sheeple… I get it".

International Order
Any comments on the threats to Hungary for refusing to bank roll olensky?

"Oh and if Ukraine isn't losing why did they lose Bakhmut and why are they losing Avdivka? And why did their vaunted offensive go nowhere"?

Any comments?

"Unfortunately Nuland, the cia and Us government didn't agree with that"

Any comments?

Any comments other than obfuscation, slights or putin is crazy type of things.

backstab – I understand your POV … but I also understand MilEFEX3030's too.

But as I posted, the US and/or NATO are in no condition to go to war with Russia. And has no reason to. And I listed my reasons why … for better or worse.

US and/or NATO are in no condition to go to war with Russia

I would profoundly disagree with that statement. NATO may not be in the best condition but even just one of the more substantial members of turning up in force in Ukraine would tip the scales wildly. Bear in mind just what Ukraine have achieved with virtually no navy, barely an air force and a very much hand-me-down in supply chain increasingly stretched thin. The potential geopolitical ramifications of such a move are a different topic.

Any comments on the threats to Hungary for refusing to bank roll olensky?

Well if Orban wanted he could leave the EU if he's that bothered by their erosion of traditional values etc, etc, we (the UK) did and we're in the sunny uplands of Brexit-land, taking back control and making our own laws. And if anything it is essentially Orban who has been blackmailing the rest of the the EU because of how the EU actually works. Frankly the guy's corrupt as **** and likely toast once he's out of power.

Anyway something, something, continuous disproportionate Russian casualties and repeated failed offensives of their own, the agency of the Ukrainian people who oddly reacted badly to a corrupt Russian shill who went all boot boy on them, everyone gives the CIA way too much credit on regime change, baaa!

Is Putin 'crazy'? A rather subjective label. Objectively no since he clearly can function as the Russian head of state and order pointless wars of aggression that just gets Russian's killed and order assassinations of critics and opponents. Though his view of history is a little bizarre to say the least. In these cases I do often find it difficult to judge if people are true believers in what they spout or are just grifting the credulous believers?

"And if anything it is essentially Orban who has been blackmailing the rest of the the EU because of how the EU actually works. Frankly the guy's corrupt as **** and likely toast once he's out of power"

Now he is corrupt too?. But frau genocide isnt right? So the eu/us destroy a nations economy because said nation wont do what the the eu/us want them to do and its fully acceptable too you. I am getting a clearer image of the International Order you admire so much, and so is the rest of the world.

"Anyway something, something, continuous disproportionate Russian casualties and repeated failed offensives of their own, the agency of the Ukrainian people who oddly reacted badly to a corrupt Russian shill who went all boot boy on them, everyone gives the CIA way too much credit on regime change, baaa"!

Its on record. Facts are a pain in the **** arnt they, but you can just ignore them and stick your fingers in your ears I suppose, makes life simpler dosent it?

"Is Putin 'crazy'"?
You may as well join in with the rest of them, heck yes he is crazy he started a war for absolutely no reason at all. He will be marching on Paris soon so we better all join up and get in the trenches with Bozzo where he can regale us with tales of Eaton.

"Oh and if Ukraine isn't losing why did they lose Bakhmut and why are they losing Avdivka? And why did their vaunted offensive go nowhere?"- Ned Ludd

I call them set backs for Ukraine, this hardly means Ukraine has lost or is losing. The cost in men and material to Russia for such small gains I consider a losing strategy if they have to repeat this process for every town or city they come across. At this rate it will take Russia decades or centuries to win. This is far from over…

What I am waiting to see is if Russia can switch to a wartime economy, produce some quality military forces in quantity and turn this debacle into a victory. In the mean time they will pay in blood, lives and equipment until that happens.

"Any comments on the threats to Hungary for refusing to bank roll olensky?"-Ned Ludd

From what I have read it sounds like Orban is blackmailing the EU for funds and going against what the majority of the EU desire. I call it politics and Hungary decided to play hardball so the EU said we can play this game also…

"From what I have read it sounds like Orban is blackmailing the EU for funds"

That is not the way the eu says it works. All the members have to agree on an issue for it to move forwards, I dont doubt that they will change that rule soon, the leadership is desperate to continue the proxy war using ukranian people as fodder. Now the us has waded in to put pressure on hungary if that dosent tell you who the master is I dont know what will. What the **** has it got to do with them? Other than forcing a continuation of the futile proxy war.
Orban has been against the escalation of the war from the beginning. This has always been a method used by the eu its just never been so overt. they used similar tactics against greece.

"The cost in men and material to Russia"

What about the ukrain, aren't they losing people on a larger scale from a smaller population? When I see the news on tv ukrain dont seem to be taking casualties at all! May be that is the truth and the russians will all run away.

"All the members have to agree on an issue for it to move forwards"- Ned Ludd

And that was the point I was making, Hungary was blocking Sweden from becoming part of NATO. So yes that is the way the EU works…

"What about the ukrain, aren't they losing people on a larger scale from a smaller population?"-Ned Ludd

Larger scale? You have any proof of that Ned Ludd?

I would profoundly disagree with that statement. NATO may not be in the best condition but even just one of the more substantial members of turning up in force in Ukraine would tip the scales wildly.

Yes, but I was thinking just NATO crossing to Russia from Poland, the Baltic States and Finland. It would take months to get all the US Forces in place to attack. Just like when the US built up assets e.g. GWI. 6-8 months IIRC. The other NATO forces in Europe could just move by rail and road to get into attack positions.

Regardless, it would be a massive undertaking. Just to get to the US/NATO into position. I think even deploying in theater may be a strain on the US and NATO. With the US & NATO Forces condition to actually go to war. And again, many of the NATO forces have downsized to a large part. E.g. in some cases a Div. is down to Bde or even Bn size.

Bear in mind just what Ukraine have achieved with virtually no navy, barely an air force and a very much hand-me-down in supply chain increasingly stretched thin.

Yes the Ukraine has really done a very good job at significantly attriting Russia's forces and limiting the Russian's advance.

Part of that is the Ukraine was very motivated to protect their homeland. And the Russian's performance was/is marginal at best. Still, I am not taking anything from the Ukraine's combat capabilities and prowess. They would have done much better is the US did not drag its feet in sending more heavy equipment. Again … For fear of escalation plus being risk adverse.

The potential geopolitical ramifications of such a move are a different topic.

Yes, I agree completely …

"I would say the people who were awake to the Covid lies have a lot in common with the people who realise that Western forces have inexplicably undermined and attacked Russia for decades since the Cold War."

Brilliant!

"Larger scale? You have any proof of that Ned Ludd"?

Do you have proof they are not Dragon Gunner?

Here is another interview with putin that the bbc and cnn wished they had done.

YouTube link

@Ned Ludd

You are the one that made the statement don't answer a question with a question to avoid answering the original question and think you are witty and smart. You made the assertion back it up.

Of course Ukraine is losing men and equipment …. someone invaded them.

Orban has been against the escalation of the war from the beginning.

Funny that given at least some of his popularity rests on the energy deals he cut with Russia…..

they used similar tactics against greece.

Admitting Greece into the Eurozone was stupid, with a certain amount of 20:20 hindsight, but many of Greece's financial problems arouse from how they chose to manage their finances. They were then left needing bailouts and those could't be handed over without assurances they weren't going to be p***ed up the wall. And an entirely different situation from Orban in effect using the veto that every EU member state potentially has…

Interesting nugget I wasn't aware of – apparently the 3-day special military operation was a product of the Russian media – Putin's own estimate from 2010-ish was apparently 14-days to Kyive…. still something of an overstatement.

Hi backstab, does the proliferation of Zelensky apologists in Australia make me wrong? Majority is always right? Really? Do you know how many open neo-Nazis our government is supporting, training and arming? It's a disgrace.

Please enlighten me then …and back it up with facts and not Putin Propaganda

If anyone has ever wondered how the German population was propagandised, seduced and had their minds polluted by state propaganda and militarism. They could do no better than brows these boards and see how easy it is for a government to fool gullible people. There is also an aspect of secretly wanting to go along with the propaganda and refusing to accept facts or even view facts that contradict the view they are going along with. The "ruscum", "putin is hitler" "Muscovites" "orks" "Russian military is too stupid".

It is futile to debate or present facts to these gullible people. They
have been willingly brainwashed by propaganda that russia/putin is the bogey man and is coming to get them. They have been hooked and landed by western propaganda. Now its ukrain, a long while ago it was wmd, a short while ago it was the shot, who knows what it will be next.

"It is futile to debate or present facts to these gullible people."- Ned Ludd

Definition of debate

"a formal discussion on a particular topic in a public meeting or legislative assembly, in which opposing arguments are put forward."

@Ned Ludd

Still waiting to have my question answered and present your AHEM facts… Instead you hurl insults and pretend to be enlightened. In a debate you have to be prepared to defend your ideas. In a debate you don't get to ignore the questions. Man up Ned Ludd you have the spot light present your facts.

Dear Dragon Gunner. I have presented many facts all over these boards from for example former German chancellor to un secretaries just to name a couple. I have come to the conclusion there is no point presenting facts anymore, you and others don't want them. So if you want them go and have a look for your self they are easy to find but I know you wont, I come here for pure entertainment now.

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hey backstab, wow. look at anything or be informed about anything about how the world worked before the invasion and it was easy to find in MSM. Now (of course) it's de-emphasised/ignored in MSM because that's not the narrative they want to tell anymore. You may have a short memory, you may be a pawn?

It's funny, because I'm an informed person, I even knew who the Taliban and Northern Alliance were before 9/11, because I watched George Negus on Aus TV when I was 16 years old.

I recommend you assess the current global situation so the story tellers can't put one over on you in the next crisis or conflict.

If you really can't find it or don't rembember it or are willfully misinformed, here are a few easily findable links that show the Nazi problem in Ukraine before the "Russia bad, Ukraine good" narrative in the West began (Last link is current). I suspect you won't open the links because if you are really so intent on believing that anything bad said about Ukraine is Putin propaganda, you will choose to be ignorant. SOP for today's sheep-people:

kyivpost.com/post/7627

tass.com/society/1036715

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@ Ned Ludd

So you declare victory and run without answering my question or presenting any facts to back up your assertion. It was not my job to refute your statement it is your job to defend them in a debate and you have utterly failed to do so. I am baffled you would be entertained by your failure…

Your attempts to keep stroking your ego are entertainment… I am predicting you will continue with your losing hand of insults and delusions of grandeur.

Dragon +1

Nazi problem in Ukraine

What aboutery. And so what? Every country pretty much has a problem with militant nationalists at some level. What about all that propaganda from Russia painting Ukraine as web progressive liberal politics destroying traditional values? Because far right parties are notorious for their progressive LGBQT-friendly policies. Oh, and exactly how many seats do far-right parties control in the Ukrainian parliament?