"Where will wargaming go?" Topic

like many here I have been playing for years. I was pondering the impact of innovation on the hobby snd where and if it will go somewhere else in the comming decades.

Essentially wargames has changed little in 40+ years.

It's still figures but many like me have gone from painted screws of my youth to 3D printed minis, but they are still minis. Now days some folk get them painted and some have been painted during manufacture but as far as I can see that's still not mainstream

Flats are back some may say they never left.

Terrain is still terrain be it homemade, lazer cut, 3 d printed, more variety but still buildings.

For most of us ( I could be correted) who use minis have never taken to computer moderated games. There are devotees but in my experience they are a small minority. We all still in the main use paper or PDF which is really still paper.

We all still use die, some new fangled D 20 but still die. Since a kid there have been electronic die but they never seem to have fired the imagination though they could reduce damage/disturbance by idiots that are still with us that throw inconsiderately. Cards are not really an innovation just an alternative to throwing die vs a list.

Paints have moved on better more dence but essentially the same.

So in 40+ years no fundamental changes. Will new rules with a camera and AI sytems really catch on to the point tat rules are some hybrid paper and AI without the current hasstle of computer moderated games.
The roleb play guys with the Hasbro debacle seems to show we are not up for mainstream moenyturising of our gaming like some of our computer game associates.

Are we like chess essentially mature, the pieces change but the form of rules and field of play will remain little changed, the pieces may now be plastic as are the boads but few if any changes in essence.

I wonder how long until someone comes up with a hologram based wargaming table where you can buy rules, terrain packs, armies digitally and they appear from the table. Blending PC strategy games with tabletop gaming for people who enjoy both.

I also think with AI and 3D printing it will be easy to generate rules and print the miniatures you want so you can quickly get into a new period or setting.

"Essentially wargames has changed little in 40+ years".

For me it has changed a lot… see link

I'm not criticising people who are happy to play wargames much as they did in 1984, but there are a lot of alternatives.

I dug my WHFB armies out for TOW and looking at them I can really see how Technique and tools have greatly simplified the hobby: speed paint, basing texture, semi transparent glazes and washes. Then something can be almost the same game but simpler: USRs, unit cards, etc.

I think someone will crack the integrated system with physical and virtual/app driven barrier

I think Wargaming will stay as it is. It's a hobby where the game play is closely integrated with the preparing of game pieces and board.

Whist may be gone but the 52 card deck is still around. When I was younger we played Rummy and Canasta.

I'm 71. I started box gaming at 12 and grown up miniatures at 16. Check with me in another 59 years, and we can discuss what's changed. So far
1) Board wargames have become peripheral, largely displaced by computer software. Just as well, if anyone remembers Anzio and 1914.
2) RPGs have either taken a large share of the potential wargamers or are a large share of wargaming, depending on how you look at them.
3) SF and Fantasy miniatures now have a huge share of the market--up from roughly nothing in 1968.
4) Skirmish games have become a thing.
5) Periods and scales of miniatures available have increased vastly.

I'd make what I think Heinlein called a "B" prediction--most of these trends will continue for a bit and level off. There seems to be an upper limit for "computer moderated" games, and also for alternative to rolling dice, and the GW commercial model doesn't seem to work well outside of F&SF.

I think come back in 20 years, and absent a social upheaval or tech breakthrough the big convention and club games will look pretty much the same--a bit better-looking, perhaps. Weekend games with friends will more often be small boards and either large (28mm? 32mm?) figures in a skirmish/RPG or 10mm and under in a mass battle. But those are generalizations. There will still be 15mm Napoleonics on 4x6 tables. In fact, many of them will be the same 15mm figures on the same tables. But the tables will mostly look better.

I'm having trouble reconciling "changed little in 40+ years" with "where will it go". If you think the changes over the last 40 years amount to nothing, then you probably think the changes we will see over the next 40 years amount to nothing also. If you want to know what may happen over the next 40 the first thing you would do is look at the last 40, right? So wargaming will remain unchanged for another 40 years, if you want to look at it that way.

Magazines from the 70s and books from the 60s that I have perused suggest that back then there really weren't commercial companies producing miniatures. There were garage businesses and people who cast their own. There were no companies producing rules and minis for them that you could buy in a retail store near you. So that's a change. Most people now play published rules, back then it was a lot of club rules, homebrew, and rules from magazines. There were *very* few published rules before the 1970s.

Sculpts and painting were abominable by today's standards. To say that the minis themselves haven't really changed is crazy.

While I don't know the origin of the averaging die (2-3-3-4-4-5), I believe it goes back to the 1960s, other than that everything before the 70s was played with six siders. The 70s introduced polyhedra dice (I suppose I should say "other polyhedra"), and the 80s brought us all the bespoke dice with symbols particular to a specific game. Somewhere along the line with abandoned the requirement for regular polyhedra, and now you can get dice with many, many, numbers of sides. So dice have changed.

A few games used ordinary playing cards in different ways prior to 40 years ago, but now it's quite common for games to have custom decks for various games.

So I have to reject the idea that miniatures games haven't changed much. In fact, it's possible that they changed more in the last fifty years than in the hundred years before that, and possibly more than they will change in the next hundred. Things might calm down.

But I suspect that color 3D printers will come along and bring a lot of people into the hobby. Yes, some people love crafting things for its own sake, and that portion of the population will keep painting minis even after it is no longer necessary. But there are people who would love to push the miniature tanks around the table except for the work and cost involved, and if the work and cost go away, well, there will be a ton of those players.

We like dice and tables, but a generation may be coming that is so attached to their devices that game apps will seem perfectly acceptable.

I wonder if holographic tabletops will be a thing.

I suspect rules are going to diverge even more.

One thing that will not change, people will keep buying more than they can paint.

The largest single change has been table shrinkage/scale shrinkage. 4x6 is, more or.less, the standard with proponents of smaller scales (10mm and below) using 4x4 or smaller yet. I think a lot of it comes from time considerations and focus.

I forgot about scales. We have branched out substantially from what was available 40 years ago. That will probably continue, especially with 3D printers. I'm already thinking about printing 25/28mm figures at 60 or 75 for very low figure count games. Why not?

Also, in addition to buying more figures that we can paint we will buy more STLs than we can print. I'm already there!

I think that the internet has broadened the ability for people to distribute and promote their wargaming miniatures and scenics greatly. It used to be , for me, a wait of a month to buy Battle or Military Modelling back then just to find out what was in the adverts. Now I can find the most interesting of things easily. Now you don't need to wait 28 days before even expecting you precious parcel to be delivered. I can see lots more choice and accessibility only increasing. Also the web has given us forums and blogs where people with a similar interest can talk to each other easily.In addition I think there are more young people who are gaming and are open to trying new things. That is only my opinion of course. Also I think that there is a greater emphasis on mayby simpler games. I enjoyed Squad Leader when younger, but appreciate simpler games now. Wargaming is about collecting, making armies, making terrain and finding rules. Can't see that changing. Where I hope it goes in the future….. hmm….A morphable lightweight non-sand sandtable where you can sculpt your own battlefield and change it whenever you want. That would be cool.

I, for one, appreciate the analog aspect of our hobby. Whether it be punching out counters then moving them about on a paper map (I had a friend who use a pencil eraser!) or desperately painting up those last PZ IVs for the big game tomorrow.
Technology means that you have to plug something in. So 3D printing or holographic game boards and the like will always be a mystery to me.
It's the simpleness and the consistency over the years that keeps me and my friends interested in this hobby.
Give me a paint brush and a bunch of French line infantry glued to a stick and I'll be happy!

I think their has been a trend to have fewer figures and game play that's more like skirmishes then battles.

In 40 years at my age miniatures games will go to bed early to rest up for the next game.

Curiously, during my 40 years in the hobby, I think it has changed dramatically. My own hobby, mostly involving miniatures gaming hasn't changed as much, though again, the miniatures side of the hobby seems to have changed dramatically to me.

I think the biggest thing is that technology will be used to make "the hobby" more accessable to a broader market place, and make it such that players can get involved for with less investment of time and labor. Basically, there will be an increase in instantaneous return.

How that will manifest is largely a mystery to me, but I suspect that it will involve virtual gameplay, which I suspect will involve both virtual experience in the game setting and virtual management of game elements and resources independent of virtual experiences.

I always scrambled to get the latest issue of magazines that had any regular feature of miniature wargaming. Most missed is MWAN. Hal always ran a column that featured letters he had received from across the country and occasionally from across the pond that told us what gamers had been up to. New period interest, scale choice, available makers of figures, their reviews of what they liked/didn't like about rules sets, new painting techniques they discovered and shared with others, etc. Sure, we have the internet now and communicating with other like minded folks is easier I still don't get the same feeling of excitement as MWAN provided. The Courier, Wargamers Digest, Military Modeler, were all similar but MWAN will always be king of the hill for me.

One thing I have noticed in rules is that strip away the glitz and innovative mechanics and charts, we still haven't moved very far away from the nebulous concept of "morale" yet the real life factors that truly address what determines the effectiveness of a unit have never really been addressed. In one popular set (at the time) of ACW rules required a morale check to be made to see if the unit would charge. In the calculation of what you needed to successfully pass that morale check the unit would get bonus modifiers if they were behind hard cover. Sure- "Come on boys! Leave this wonderful cover and jump out into the open, get shot at and melee that enemy unit!" Nowhere in the rules did it explain "Use the modifiers that apply for making the morale check." The rules lawyers insisted that they could use that bonus because nothing in the rules prohibited it in this case. That has changed for most of us yet my point remains that no new mechanics have evolved in the mass developed/sold rule sets that have introduced new thoughts on mechanics on the behavior of the units. (Of those I have seen so far.)

We now have figures for periods (and learned of new periods) that were once considered too obscure to be profitable. (WSS, Russo-Japanese War, Spanish Civil War, League of Augsburg, Wild West, several small wars in Africa, etc. to name a few.) Thank goodness because the thrill of learning about a new period breathed new life into the hobby for many of us- and still does.

"This is the golden age of wargaming" seems to appear so many times that it has become cliché. Yet, when you stop to consider it, it will always apply to our hobby as long as we continue to find fun in what we do and continue to share our enjoyment with others.

Andrew Walters, an interesting take "what do you consider change" and is to the point.

Interesting difference of opinion on scale. One of my first games was 6.25mm scale I.e. 1/4" screws for Napolionic infantry. While sculpts have changed, noticeably some 3D prints are mostly anatomical correct, some airfix poses were not however it's taken me 40 years to realise it so it can't be a radical change. However to me more complex sculpts cited as sn advance are no move forward for me, only a painting fanatic would do that detsil and thst is certaimly not a step forward in my opinion. To me increasing figure detail is no advance. Plastic figures have always been better but I guess you could say modern paints and plastics take paint better. Hey 20 years on I am still using some of the old flaky plastic so again not much of a change

Again to some advances in paint my be an issue, I only use 3 colours so that "advance" not one I would rate. to be fair acrylics were a bit of progress as they used water, but that is not a radical change for me.

I would agree that forward projecting solid looking holograms in full colour, thstb last perfect forever perhaps, especially if the could automatically scale to any size would be a big advance. Use able holographic terrain I suspect is a dream far off but that would be epic advancement, especially if it could work off real maps.

Andrew Walters has it what do you define as the same. I've been for a walk and thought. Figures, mine now have more in common with my 6.35mm screwas than todays over detailed figures. They in the main are simple generic prone 1/144 figures, prone flats if you like and they harp back far longer than 40 years. 3D printing, is it a revolution,in essence its scratch building with a better tool. Is that a fundamental change? 25 yrars ago at least i was building card AFV's and in a recent paper modelling thread had a guy making card tanks. The tool changes the skills not so much. when I started drafting you had to sharpen a pencil to get a
the required 1mm thick line, now you use a computer and it draws the line 1mm when required. depending on how you look at it it's either a vast change, or really minimal. The jobs the same represent a 3D object on paper.

It all depends on how you view you hobby what perhaps is unchanged and what has advanced.

I'm not sure my opinion is overly valid, but to mee the bulk of commercial rules have varied little, a nod to John Armatys for his link, 1962. Featherstone book, Many rules have not moved from there and thats 62 years, Very few even add opted the tenants of his second book Advanced Wargames. Great link lots of books but fundamentally moving wargames on, purely personal but nothing there for me.

I guess perhaps I am wrong in one respect and I do not call it an advance. Excessive profiteering and the rise of "Rules rental" may be a dissapointing retrograde change over the last 40 years I hope it will not cloud the next 40 years..

Augustus -I guess it just shows how our perceptions of the hobby are different. The wargames club I joined some 40 yeas ago (in my mind they failed utterly in now making me Chairman now after 40 years you would have learnt better). has just started to throw some 6' by 4' boards away some proably from that long ago on heath and safety grounds, some of the chipboard was badly damaged, but we have replaced them with the same. Perhaps some of the new ones are lasting a bit longer as I painted the corner with that now New Fangled PVA not available 40 years on, not really a major change.

Ps, I should say thank you all for making this such an interesting and fun thread.

On eBay, in my case.

Let's go wild--especially since I hope not to be around even for a 10 year review. How about disposable armies? Doesn't matter how cheap the castings are: after a while, the constraint is storage space. If we can really buy cheap color 3D printed forces, look for gamers to buy a pair in winter, game spring and summer and sell them off/throw them away after the big game at the fall convention.

Mind you, I do not see a future for miniature wargaming which does not involve beloved units and special lucky dice.

One thing I missed was the seemingly from my standpoint the lazer pointer. We did all have one but somehow they fell out of fashion leaving the game unchanged. Is this just in my perview or is it universal.

Must admit for me Lucky die do not exist and if they did I would suspect advertant or inadvertent cheating. it's a random device if it is not it has no place in war gaming.

Beloved unit no, beloved army maybe unit, Hopefully every scenario has a different mix and few units remain unscathed over a battle.

Disposable army's. In the past after 2 years some army's were scrap, bent, chpped paint etc. so they were disposed of scrap after 2 years. Now 3D prints seem to last FAR longer, so the need to throw a working army away/dispose of it may be the new reality.

I'm aiming to bring back the periscope in my gaming. The kiddy ones in the Fang of the Sun Dougram Game were the first I'd ever heard of them, then old miniatures guy did a video version in United States of America.! Amazing. I had to have one. Now I ordered 30cm cheap sh*t from China. Standing by for effect on table. Fang you.

Mil – good one, I had forgotten them, they were again arronud in my club for a bit but in my club and the shows I have been to they seem to have faded away. Perhaps you will start a revival.

Yes UshCha I had never seen one used in Canberra and I've been going to Cancon since 1992. I've seen lots of laser pointers the last few years but I am excited to get down to the men's level and have every fold in the terrain mean something. Something I do a lot from the edge of the table but to be able to do it from any point is exciting.

To maximise the realism in my new World War 2 project I aim to have each figure in 3 poses that I can change out (standing/running, crouching and prone).

In a different game I also wish to build Dougram and Soltics which are fully poseable and can represent actual target profiles in the table's scenery.

Some guys I read about online built their own periscopes using cheap makeup mirrors from the grocery store and cardboard.

Mil – ironic I am in Canberra this week over from the UK visiting the wife's brother, small world.

Oh haha okay. My recommendation while you're here is to check out a Kingsley's Chicken outlet, 3 or 4 in Canberra but nowhere else on earth – get the double country burger with coleslaw and gravy on it. And the chips of course. Awesome chips. Reasonable value. I basically live off it.

Can't figure out how to DM here but UshCha, you are a very cool and interesting member at TMP.

I have read and appreciated your posts for years – you spend time on the details of combat that many would not consider.

If you are still in Canberra next week, would you consider a meet up at Belconnen's very own Kingsley's Chicken for delicious food and a chat about wargaming?

We should probably keep politics aside as I suspect we have different takes on Russia etc, but that is fine with me – I respect everyone as a human being and especially a poster here with so much to contribute.

Thanks.

MilEFEX3030 – Alas after far too much time in a cigartube (Dash 8, and A380 I am back in the UK.) But the oiffer is appreeciated and thanks for the comments.

No worries, I thought I should offer since I think I'm the only Canberra TMPer (??)and genuinely was interested to hang out.

Maybe next time Gov! Feel free to give me a DM (Can you even DM on TMP?) if you're ever down here again.