"US light tanks?" Topic

Did the US use any of the later M3 variants like the M3A1 or M3A3 or did they all go for lend lease?

My guess would be they still used them in Italy. Maybe the french got them?

M3A1 was used in North Africa and the early part of the Pacific war (e.g., the Marines had a company on Guadalcanal). M3A3 was given to allies like the UK, France and China. The US put the turret of the M3A3 on the M5 Stuart to create the M5A1.

Thanks Mark. That is what I assumed from the pictorial evidence, but wondered if a few made it to NWE. I assume the Brits got M5's at some point as the M3 ceased production in September of 1943.

In NWE, the US Army used M5A1s. There are a (very) few pictures of M5s (with the M3A1 turret) in US service in NWE. The suspicion is that they were scraping the barrel after the Battle of the Bulge. At a distance these could be mistaken for M3A1s. It is also possible that a few others crept in when forces were redeployed from Italy after Dragoon but I think it's unlikely.

The British used M3A1s, M3A3s and M5A1s in NWE. Generally the recce troop of an armoured or tank regiment had a single type but these were sometimes mixed as replacements were supplied. I think it wasn't uncommon to have M5A1s with M3A3s. Of course, the British removed the turrets of most of them. Here's a breakdown of the types before D-Day.

link

There used to be a summary of the next set of AFV returns for 21 Army Group (courtesy of Peter Brown) available online, dated Dec 1944, however I cannot find it.

Just on the British side, which might cast some light on the overall availability of Stuart types, the picture had changed by 1945, with the below figures given as of 13 Jan 1945.

Stuart III – 33
Stuart V – 38
Stuart VI – 374

The RAC issued a series of Liaison Letters specific to 21 Army Group units and formations. Other than the Dec 1944 summary I've not seen any figures of holdings during Jun-Dec 1944 in 21 AG, however the liaison letters refer to a shortage of Stuarts in the early months of the campaign, which led to a theatre re-org of the Recce Tps, becoming six Stuarts and up to six Daimler scout cars in Armd Regts/Tk Bns, or all Daimlers in Armd Recce Regts. That was written into the end of war WE for the Armd Regt of May 1945.

Also not something I've seen is a contemporary list of which Regiments went 'turret-on' and which 'turret-off' for their Stuarts in NWE. As I recall in Italy it was a theatre wide 'turret-off' decision.

I'm sure there are AFV returns for US forces in the ETO, though I've no idea what they cover or where they would be.

Gary

Gary,

I've been told that all the information from Peter Brown appeared in an article in the Tank Museum magazine Tracklink. Someone sent me the tables and there is an additional one from June 1945. Unfortunately, only the June 1944 tables split the tanks by type (e.g. Stuart Mk III, Mk V etc), the later ones split by armament e.g. Sherman 75mm, 17pdr etc. The Oct 1944 estimate letter implies that all the Stuarts would be Mk VIs by 1945 but the Bulge may have affected that.

I have the impression that the armoured recce regiments never had Stuarts in the recce troop, only Daimler scout cars. I think this comes from the 15/19th Hussars regimental history and the Trux WEs but could be wrong.

Another impression is that the decision to remove the turrets was made by each regiment. From reading memoirs and regimental histories, I recall that some units kept the turrets on one in three tanks. I'll have have a look.

Gary,

Apologies. I see that you had summarised the tanks used by the armoured recce troops here and that each followed their own preferences.

link

The 15/19th use of scout cars is confirmed in their regimental history on page 80. The Light Dragoons have put it in downloadable pdf form on their website. Here's the link.

link

I went through my notes and found the following:

Royal Scots Greys – references to a German armoured car being knocked out and turrets being hit so I think we can assume that they were retained. From Sprot "Swifter than Eagles"

29th Brigade. All turrets removed between 6th and 13th July 1944. Dalglish "Over the Battlefield Operation Bluecoat"

Inniskillings Dragoons. Seems that turrets were removed on some and each troop had a Honey (with turret), a "sawn off" (Honey without turret) and a Dingo. The "sawn offs" had Brownings. At one point, universal carriers were used but were replaced by "sawn offs" by November 1944. From "First In, Last Out".

We seem to have got well on to "US light tanks in British service", but if nobody minds …

Thanks Trockledockle for pointing out what I had missed in Dalglish, that 29AB jalopied all its Stuarts in early July. I had seen plenty of evidence of deturreted M3A3 Stuart Vs, and so far seen none of any which had kept their turrets.

At this stage, I believe that all Stuarts in 29AB were M3A3 Stuart Vs. I have a special interest in 3RTR; as far as I can judge, jalopied Stuart Vs in bith this regiment and 23H lost both their turrets and the forward hatches (keeping them doesn't make much sense to me …) Fifty cal Brownings were somehow fixed facing forward on the turret ring. I have seen pictures and film of these recce tanks during Goodwood and at the liberation of Antwerp. I've not seen any material relating to F&FYeo.

Interestingly, the same material also show turreted M5A1 Stuart VIs with 3RTR crew, certainly at Antwerp and also I think by the time they were at Argentan.

From pictures I've seen of the Irish, Gds Armd Div had Stuart VIs from the beginning in NWE, and I've read that somehow the Div disdained suggestions that it should vandalise HM's tanks.

Seeing pictures of 27AB (13/18H to be precise) my impression is that the indepenedent Armd/Tank Bdes had the M3A1s.

My thanks as well to TD for the above, especially a reminder of my old musings on WW2talk.com.

15/19 H is as noted a confirmed case of nil Stuarts. The same arrangement appears to have been seen with 2 Northants Yeo, their predecessor in the role of Armd Recce Regt for 11 Armd Div. For a first hand account of the unit in Normandy I would recommend "Sixty-four days of a Normandy summer – Keith Jones (Robert Hale 1990)". The author mentions the scout cas of the Recce Tp (I cannot recall if he IDs them as Daimlers or Humbers).

The odd thing is that 11 Armd Div are listed in the annex to the Jun 1944 RAC report as having 44 Stuarts on hand so why they went with scout cars is unknown to me at least. The WE for an Armd Recce Regt Type "B" did have a Recce Tp of 12 scout cars, so perhaps when the Regt changed to the 'standard' WE they kept their scout cars somehow?

The Jun 1944 annex shows the same figures as given in the above link to Leo Niehorster's site. That's probably best seen as the starting position for AFVs in 21 AG. The basic allotment for Stuarts was then initially -

IIIs – the four Indep Armd Bdes and two of the Tk Bdes.

Vs – 7 and 11 Armd Divs; 4 Cdn Armd Div and 2 Cdn Armd Bde.

VIs – Gds Armd Div, 6 Gds Tk Bde, Pol Armd Div, Czech Armd Bde, and the aforementioned 15/19 H, who were then equipped with DD tanks.

The Dec 1944 annex is buried in what is a something like 700 page RAC Progress report for the second half of 1944. I've tried to get a copy of the annex at least a few times but seems the only way is to get the whole report copied, which is a tad expensive! There are some earlier figures from Oct 1944 but they don't, as I recall, include the position for light tanks. I have figures for various dates in 1945 (Jan-May) but haven't transcribed the Stuart figures. As ever, there's no breakdown of figures below formation level anyway.

Gary

Gary,

Good summary. There is more information on the recce troop of the 2nd FIfe and Forfar in the recent book by Hart "Burning Steel" but I've returned it to the library. By the way, it's a book well worth reading.

I would add that you see more MkVIs as the campaign progressed. In Delaforce' books on the 1RTR and 7th AD, there are pictures of MkVIs (1 RTR and 8th Hussars).

One thing I would say is that I haven't seen a Mk VI without a turret. It may just be me.

TD,

Anything you can share regarding 2F&FYeo Recce Tp from your recent reading?

I too have never seen a turretless Stuart VI. I was surprised to see this vehicle pop up in footage of 3RTR entering Antwerp; these Stuarts arrive in a different bunch from the turretless Stuart Vs seen earlier, but the cap badges leave no room for doubt. Circumstantially, other evidence points to this vehicle already being with 3RTR in mid-August, so there was evidently some replenishing of vehicle holdings – maybe just after Bluecoat.

Can anyone point to a picture of a turreted British Stuart V in Normandy, and if so what unit does it belong to and when does the picture date from?

Come to that, did Stuart IIIs get sawn off as well? I know this became common practice in the Mediterranean, but in NWE?

Laretenue,

The book is based on interviews recorded in the 1990s from former members. One of them was definitely in the recce troop but I can't recall the details. If you are interested, you can buy it from the author on eBay.

I had a look at the photos of the 3CLY in the NAM taken by Major Sales but couldn't find any of Stuarts.

I also can't recall a picture of a MkIII without a turret in NWE.

Perhaps the US started putting child-proof tops on to stop their kit being messed about with…

Stuart Hills, By Tank into Normandy, went on to command the Recce Tp of the SRY later in the campaign in NWE, and as I recall his Stuarts were not modified.

Gary

No problem with hijacking the thread. Fascinating stuff.

I've searched the IWM collections site using Stuart and Second World War and found a lot of pictures of Stuarts in NWE.

There is a picture of a SRY Stuart MkV with an American patrol going into Germany and it has a turret.
link

Other than 11AD, I can't see any turretless Stuarts in NWE. 7AD seem to have retained theirs.

This may be a picture of a 23rd Hussars MkVI without a turret but it may be a MkV. Comments are welcome.
link

A similar exercise could be done on the Pathe website.

There is, I think, on WW2talk.com, a copy of the report on the turret on/off debate had in Italy in 1943, which resulted in turrets off as a Theatre approach. That had a big impact on the Armd Recce Regts, which had two Stuarts and two Shermans per Tp.

Any sense of what the Canadian Armoured Corps was doing re its Stuarts in 21 AG, particular to turrets on/off?

Gary

I don't know about numbers but I saw a photo not long ago of 4th CAD just after hostilities ended with a Stuart with the turret next to one without. So all I can say is they used both versions.

What did the Canadians do with their Stuarts (Mk VIs, it seems?

Gentlemen, will this link help link ?

I have another picture showing a turretless Stuart VI in the main square of Bergen-op-Zoom, but unfortunately even Google can't source this. I believe it to be Canadian even though (like the sawn-off Stuart VI in the link above) the veh number begins T~ rather than CT~. I checked that both pics don't show the same tank, but one seems to begin T27~ while th eotherlooks more like T23~. Shame I can't upload it; it also has what looks like a Crusader AA in the background, I think these had been repurposed as AT Bty cmd vehicles by this time, and they seem to have been very camera-shy.

Might be mingled in amongst the other threads and links, another unusual user of Stuart sawn-offs were the Westminster Regt, the Motor Bn of 5 Cdn Armd Bde (5 Cdn Armd Div), who acquired the ones thrown up by the reorg of the Armd Recce Regt onto the standard WE when the Div transferred over from Italy. I've got a link somewhere to the online WD for the Regt that details the acquisition, with the Stuarts being swapped for the carriers of the Atk Pls.

Gary

The Yugoslav tank brigade formed by the US and UK in Italy and shipped over from Bari also included a fair number of Stuarts; I do not have the details to hand but have certainly seen several photos.

Laretenue,

I managed to have a look at a copy of "Burning Steel" and two of the interviews confirm that the 2nd F&FY Recce troop had turretless Stuarts from early July 1944.