"Bloody Barons1 or Bloody Barons2?" Topic

Peter Pig players, which do you recommend for large WOR games?

Thanks for mentioning the rules.
Here are some notes on V2.

link

martin

I have, but have not played, v1 of Bloody Barons.

From what I've read, it seems that the new version of BB is following Pig's path of going to a grid system for movement and other measurements in its rules.

So, I guess, the important thing is how you feel about gridded measuring. If you like it, you'll probably be fine with BB2. If you hate it, you'll probably prefer BB1.

I have no problem with the grids—have a Hotzmat gridded mat. Kind of surprised that there was a new version so radically different.

I followed the link and was drawn to the PP comment that " Leading from the front greatly affects the battle but is risky for the generals". Losing a battle was pretty disaster out for nobles but I struggled to think of many who died before the battle was effectively lost. Norfolk at Bosworth and possibly Montagu at Barnet, others?

I think I need to throw some "light" on this so that the casual reader appreciates the danger of being a battle commander in WOTR.

Many WOTR generals died in battle.
A far bigger number than in the ECW for example.

I agree they are more likely to die when their army is losing.

Maybe I can start with some for illustrative purposes

Audley
Richard III
Duke of Buckingham
Earl of Shrewsbury
Lord Egremont
Lord Beaumont
Duke of York
Earl of Northumberland
Duke of Buckingham
Trollope
Lord Dacre
Robert Horne

………. and loads more

One reason for the high number of generals dying is that generals needed to lead their men from the front. This is because the troops would otherwise not stay to fight as it was common for generals to abandon troops and look after themselves (see Ludford).

Another reason is that these were wars of hatred. The opponents had equal rights to claim inheritances etc ,so needed to be killed in order to remove future threats. Remember that these are members of the same nobility fighting each other. They are not foreigners who will go home once beaten

The "spare the commoners kill the lords" battle cry is also illuminating.

martin

Martin G,
I'm sure this question has been asked 100,000 times on TMP (but I get frustrated using the "search" function for older posts)…

What's this game's portability back to the HYW? I know the intent is period specific, and I only know the broad brush of the military history and tactics of the time, but it seems it would fit; my assumption is that technology and tactics did not change too much in those 30-40 year span between the two "wars?"

Your thoughts?

Hello M
HYW is not my speciality sadly.
The major difference is the cavalry. Most WOTR battles did not feature cavalry as the main strike force (Blore Heath was certainly a "put off" for the idea). Rather as a flank force. This is partially due to the above "generals on foot and fighting" .

Many WOTR battles/wars were quite small on the scale of European fights.

Maybe I can persuade you to try playing BB and do your own conversion to HYW when you now how BB works?

Sorry to be of little help.

martin

Thanks Martin,
I might take a look/see. HYW is one of my side projects. I read a few books, saw a few cool movies, and thought "cool wargame ideas." I'm still a bit confused on exactly how companies, bands, lances, retinues…what ever you call a "unit" in the parlance of the time actually deployed in battle.

Was it "everyone with swingy axe things stand here with Lord Bobcart" and "everyone with shooty things stand here with Sir Fancy Pants" or were units mixed retinues with their lord/mercenary captain giving tactical orders-did they even give tactical orders or was it all pre-battle planning, or even more, some unwritten set of "battle drill" that "professional" soldiers just knew by experience at the time? Seems each set of wargames rules treats the "unit" very differently. The big block o' warrior stand here and charge or hold seems way too simplistic for what you see happening in the history books…until they invent time machines…

I think those of us with the modern military mindset/training find it hard to wrap around how things may have worked in a semi-professional warrior culture.

Guys! We're off subject! I'm trying to pull the trigger for BB here. On the HYW vs WoR I'd say the most important thing is the vastly increased use of steel plate armor for the nobility.

YouTube link

YouTube link

YouTube link

These four videos might be of interest chaps?

YouTube link

martin

Thank you. The relight gives me an idea of how the set works.

Good news

martin