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"Facings colors for French Legere" Topic


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2,284 hits since 13 Dec 2023
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Comments or corrections?

Tyler32613 Dec 2023 10:04 a.m. PST

Looking for sources that show me the colors of the epaulettes, collar, cuffs, and shako plumes etc fot the French 21st and 24th light infantry. I've found some generic but nothing specific to these regiments. Ant hepl is very appreciated.TIA

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP13 Dec 2023 10:48 a.m. PST

Not sure it matters, but what period?

Oliver Schmidt13 Dec 2023 11:00 a.m. PST

In French, but there are also some illustrations.

21e:

link

24e:

link

Prince of Essling13 Dec 2023 11:55 a.m. PST

You will also see a number of drawings for the 21st Legere in link

79thPA Supporting Member of TMP14 Dec 2023 9:10 a.m. PST

I'll display my ignorance and say that I thought all legere units wore the same uniforms.

Dave Jackson Supporting Member of TMP14 Dec 2023 12:08 p.m. PST
Personal logo 4th Cuirassier Supporting Member of TMP14 Dec 2023 4:20 p.m. PST

MAA 146 says few / no differences between regiments post 1812, and likewise before 1812 although the 24th apparently had one white diagonal shako cord and green pompoms.

Prince of Essling15 Dec 2023 3:48 p.m. PST

In general uniforms were fairly consistent but there were regimental variations – mainly to plumes, epaulettes, cords etc…. Herewith Rousselot illustrations to demonstrate this (Russian edition as text identifying the illustrations is included):

picture

picture

picture

picture

picture

picture

79thPA Supporting Member of TMP18 Dec 2023 7:42 a.m. PST

Nice uniform plates. Thanks for posting.

tvlamb04 Jan 2024 5:06 p.m. PST

21st uniforms were unique. In the 1808-1809 period at least the elite companies wore brown colpacks. The regiment had red pointed cuffs piped white and blue collars piped red. Probably remained that way as long as they were in Spain at least. 4th Battalion in II Corps (Central Europe/Austria) may have had shakos on elite companies, but I expect they retained the unique collars and cuffs.

Prince of Essling05 Jan 2024 3:32 a.m. PST

From Alfons Canovas website:

picture

picture

picture

Lilian05 Jan 2024 10:02 a.m. PST

given El Guil is dubious I would like to know what PLD has something to say about the brown uniforms of the Carabiniers of 21e léger in Spain, of course the Light Infantry will be also a volume of his exciting Series and he is writing about that,

concerning the topic of French brown uniforms each time I asked to him if such-and-such regiment had really one, he was obliged to disappoint me (e.g. 13e Cuirassiers, 88e also from El Guil)

Mark J Wilson07 Jan 2024 3:58 a.m. PST

PoE do we know where Rousselot got his information from, i.e. does he have references in his works.

Lilian07 Jan 2024 7:22 a.m. PST

concerning such brown uniforms of 21e léger, with no surprise, Paul Lindsay Dawson researcher on French Archives confirms me that such uniform is not at all reliable as well as many others so-called brown uniforms of the French Army in Spain
another fake new to add to the list with 13e Cuirassiers, 88e de ligne and brown-dressed-Dragoons

forewarned is forearmed

the 21e léger when inspected in Spain in 1811 at Estremadura were wearing blue uniforms. The 2e and 3e battalions then headed to Germany – Wesel- and Russia. The 1er, 2e and 3e battalions with the Armée du Midi, when reviewed in 1813 were missing shirts, underwear, socks, but were wearing blue, just as they were in 1814.
Given El Guil is a phantom source, known only by copies of copies, it is best ignored, especially when it can be shown to contradict other sources made in the epoch.
Masses of data on resupply of French troops deployed in Spain exists in the Archives Nationales in Paris. Very little has been used by researchers

Paul Lindsay Dawson

Amen

von Winterfeldt07 Jan 2024 11:46 a.m. PST

I agree with Paul Lindsay Dawson, El Guil most likely an invented source, as Marckolsheim

Prince of Essling07 Jan 2024 1:01 p.m. PST

For "El Guil" see information at TMP link

Prince of Essling07 Jan 2024 3:47 p.m. PST

Re Lucien Rousselot – from Edward Ryan the Text writer to NAPOLEON'S ELITE CAVALRY: Cavalry of the Imperial Guard, 1804-1815

"My family and I had the privilege of coming to know Lucien and Renée Rousselot, and to benefit from their generous hospitality, during the several years which we spent in Paris in the 1960s.

Rousselot's art combined exceptional technical skill with absolute authenticity. Over the almost 80 years of his artistic creativity, Rousselot's application of those qualities produced one of the most accurately depicted records of French military uniforms, arms and equipment as they evolved from the early 18th century to the middle of the present century.

As Rousselot began to make a name for himself in the world of military historians and artists, he became aware of the fact that some of his greatly admired predecessors had in some instances depended on questionable sources for their documentation. Consequently, in 1925 Rousselot began a systematic search in the archives of the army, where, among other things, he found samples of cloth for uniforms which had never been exposed to the fading effect of sunlight, reports of inspectors general, as well as examples of uniforms and equipment which had survived. Rousselot described his best sources as contemporary iconography, contemporary paintings, miniatures, naive portraits, archives, reports, and correspondence.

It was not long before Rousselot was accepted in the circle of French military historians and uniformologists as a leading expert on the design of French uniforms, arms, and equipment. All of this recognition did nothing, however, to alter his modest and generous attitude toward all who turned to him for assistance.

Rousselot's chef d'oeuvre, for which he is most widely known, was his series of 106 plates (Planches) on the uniforms, arms and equipment of the French army – L'Armée Francaise – ses Uniformes – son Armement – son Equipment.

However, I first became aware of the ninety-one Rousselot paintings of the four elite regiments of Napoleon's Guard cavalry – those presented in Napoleon's Elite Cavalry – in 1988, when I visited the Anne S. K. Brown Military Collection for the purpose of examining its large collection of sheets of paper soldiers. Whilst browsing amongst the stacks and shelves, I spotted a thick, green folder with an embossed gold Napoleonic eagle on its cover. I was astonished to find that it contained original Rousselot paintings, the existence of which I had been totally unaware. The paintings were done by Rousselot on commission from Mrs. Anne Brown, and delivered to her in 1957. It seems probable that he had been working on them for some time, perhaps several years previously.

I was struck by the fact that this very rich pictorial material, produced by France's arguably greatest living military artist on a subject of great interest, was almost totally unknown to ? and unavailable to, under the prevailing circumstances ? the admirers of Lucien Rousselot's work.

I wrote to Rousselot about my discovery, expressing the hope that it would be possible to arrange for the paintings publication. Rousselot replied that he would like very much to see them published.

I greatly regret that the fulfillment of that aspiration, expressed ten years ago, has come too late for my friend to be able to share my gratification at seeing its realization."

Yes – Rouselot does give his sources e.g. the Carabinier Sergant-Major flag-bearer of 21st Legere is based on Zimmerman.

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