"Angon and Bebrae" Topic

Hello everyone ,

When I did a lot of research on the Angon of Frankish warriors at the time of the Merovingian dynasty, I easily found photos and documentation even if sometimes it was sometimes far-fetched.

On the other hand, I also did a lot of research on the Bebrae of the Alemanni warriors at the time of the Merovingian dynasty, I found nothing, yet even if of the same style and the same use, it is a different weapon.

If it looks like an angon and is used like an angon…
I know 'angon' as a term beloved of archaeologists, but I don't know Bebrae. Does any single source use both terms (and how contemporary are those sources)? Could they be the terms used by the Frank's and Alemanni for the same thing?

You asked something similar three years ago.
'Angon' first appears (in English) in 1702. 'Bebrae' seems to be limited to Vegetius. It's just possible that Bebrae might have been shorter than other throwing javelins (according to Vegetius' description, and the assumed length of (assumed) javelins from Northern Europe, but I wouldn't put money on it. Best bet is to look for Alemanni grave sites – though I don't know if they buried grave goods at the time that you are interested in. However do note that 'angon' at least doesn't seem to be a very specific term, nor could I find even a near contemporary use of the word (in a 30 minute Internet search).

Yes, these are the terms used by the Franks and the Alemanni to designate their respective heavy throwing weapons, but they were necessarily different, that is what I would like to compare.
I'm asking again what I asked three years ago, hoping for change. Ammanius reports a large number of throwing weapons used by Germanic warriors during the battle of Argentotarum [Battle of Strasbourg in 357 AD] the spicula, a long javelin similar to the pilum, also known as an angon…Ammanius makes no distinction between the armament of the Franks and the Alemanni, which does not suit me.
​

Vegetius compares the Bebrae to the pilum.

"they were necessarily different". Please expand…

As the Franks and the Alemanni are two different peoples,so the Bebrae and Angons are different, not the same length, not the same shape and blade length even if their use is the same.

How do you know they were different? We cannot know:

a) spear/javelin shafts rarely survive, so lengths cannot be compared;

b) the metal pointy bits do not have labels on them, so no one can say this is one is typical of an angon, and this is typical of bebrae;

c) different names and different tribes, even if the Romans actually got that bit right, which is a BIG if, do not mean different weapons – you are simply assuming that they are; and

d) weapons are not standardised amongst tribes, and warriors will have what they can afford and what is best suited to their physicality and skill, so two blokes with "bebrae" might have somewhat different weapons.

Bebrae sounds Latin, angon doesn't. Could they be two names for the same weapon, with different provenances ? Otherwise I have seen both compared to the pilum, so they would likely have been pretty similar.

Apart from the above suggestions, I know nothing. But then neither does anyone else, including you, Paskal.

Yes Dagwood, that's why I'm asking the question.

The angon is a Frankish spear or javelin whose iron has the shape of a harpoon, thus certain authors have maintained, like Pierre-Daniel Huet, that it was the primordial type of the fleur-de-lys which became the French royal insignia, symbol which has been interpreted as originally representing the angon of the Franks….

The angon was used as a weapon of war or hunting.

The angon was similar in construction and use to the Roman pilum, from which it was probably derived.

The discovery of this weapon in the tombs of the people of the Angles and the Thuringians suggests that it was not exclusive to Frankish warriors [There is no question of the Alemanni].

However, it was one of the rarest but also the most unique weapons of the Frankish period.

The first presumed author who made mention of this weapon is the Byzantine historian Agathias who describes this throwing weapon in the second volume of his History of the Time of Justinian in these terms:

"The angon is a pike, neither too long nor too short, which can be thrown if necessary, but which is also suitable for defense and attack.

This javelin is almost entirely made of iron, and only the handle is made of wood.

At the upper end of the weapon (the point), are two kinds of hooks curved towards the shaft and quite similar to the hooks of a fishhook. »

"When angon is thrown at an enemy and it penetrates the flesh, it becomes so embedded that it cannot be extracted without rendering the wound mortal; if this weapon hits a shield, it sticks there so deeply that its "fangs" make any extraction impossible: it then remains suspended there, sweeping the earth by its extremity: the Frankish warrior has only to rush forward, put your foot on the handle of the javelin to discover the body of your opponent and kill him with your sword. »

"Sometimes, the angon is attached to a rope, serves as a harpoon and all that remains is to pull on it to bring the enemy within range of the swords. »

Source:Story of the battle of Casilinum in 555, won by Narses over the Franks and the Alemanni [Alamanni equipped with angons and francisques by their Frank masters]).

I would check the original word behind the "pike" translation. Was Agathias writing in Latin or Greek ?

Otherwise, it sounds much like a plum.

Did you mean pilum?

I did, but "plum" sounds better !

We have accidentally stumbled on the origins of the angon.
They originated as purple painted pila issued to the Emperor's German bodyguard. Miniature versions, also painted purple became the plumbata.

The Angon is the heavy throwing weapon of the Franks, as the pilum was that of the Romans. Many peoples used them, but they were all of different lengths and appearances depending on the people [especially their blades], that of the alamans It was the Bebrae but unfortunately I was never able to see photos or illustrations of this weapon to compare them with the Angon.

Even the pilum can come in a variety of lengths and shapes over the period it was in use. If both the angon and bebrae are comparable to the pilum, they can't be much different apart from in length. The angon is described as a dual purpose spear/javelin so is on the long side.

The Alemanni and Franks were in the same army in Italy (Agathias). Plenty of opportunity to learn from each other. So I don't see much difference in their weapons.

But who knows ?

In Italy, the Alemanni served the Franks and had been equipped by them with Frankish weapons.

DBS303

d) weapons are not standardised amongst tribes, and warriors will have what they can afford and what is best suited to their physicality and skill, so two blokes with "bebrae" might have somewhat different weapons.

+1

@OSCS74
When I did a lot of research on the Angon of Frankish warriors at the time of the Merovingian dynasty, I easily found photos and documentation even if sometimes it was sometimes far-fetched.

On the other hand, I also did a lot of research on the Bebrae of the Alemanni warriors at the time of the Merovingian dynasty, I found nothing, yet even if of the same style and the same use, it is a different weapon.

Each people having their own culture, the Angons of the Franks must have been different from the bebrae of the Alemanni. But it is impossible to find photos or even simply a description of the bebrae which is not the case with the angon.

@DBS303

quote:
"d) weapons are not standardised amongst tribes, and warriors will have what they can afford and what is best suited to their physicality and skill, so two blokes with "bebrae" might have somewhat different weapons."

Actually weapons were kinda standardized or maybe the better way of putting it is that weapons followed certain fashions and styles. We can tell viking age swords made in scandinavia apart from swords made in frankia or the anglo-saxon kingdoms.

Also there were laws specifying what weapons troops had to bring along. So, it was not just what you could afford, but also what you were legally required to bring.

That being said: Most Angons have been found in the area of the Franks. Some are known from Allemannia and other areas. Seems to have been a typical frankish weapon. No idea what a bebrae might be. In general it can be a methodical problematic to attach historical terms to archaeological finds. Just go by the finds and you will know what weapons were carried, even if you can't attach a contemporary name to them. But why would that be important?

Presumptive principle: purple-painted pila plus plumbata produced panic preceding prodigious pain.

@Schlaumeier
Yes most Angons have been found in the area of ​​the Franks because they are typical Frankish weapons.

Yes no idea what a bebrae might be, except that they are typical Alemannic weapons corresponding to the Angons of the Franks but different because they are not the same people.

I don't understand why those who write about the Alemanni don't talk about them but that due to lack of culture, they sometimes also talk about angons for the Alemanni?

@Henry Martini
Purple-painted pila plus plumbata produced panic preceding prodigious pain but only on lead figurines and their owner.