"Has The Decline Of US Power Been Greatly Exaggerated?" Topic

"For more than a decade, people have been saying that the era of US dominance is coming to an end. But in reality there are still no other global players to rival it

In recent years, the idea that the United States is an empire in decline has gained considerable support, some of it from quarters that until very recently would have denied it was ever an empire at all. The New York Times, for instance, has run columns that describe a "remarkably benign" American empire that is "in retreat", or even at risk of decline and fall…"

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Armand

I doubt it. There's not a power on earth that has suffficient ships and aircraft to carry an expeditionary force to the American coast and the men and equipment to make that force large enough to be effective. They may yet succeed in persuading the US to have a nervous breakdown, but I find it hard to believe that even that would leave us vulnerable.

What has been exaggerated is the American public's interest in spending lives and money to solve foreign problems. As time passes, I suspect that the Cold War will seem more and more like an anomaly, and American governments will be less and less interested in picking sides in quarrels that don't fundamentally threaten us.

Well based on some reports from various sources the US Military, needs to modernize, and the Pentagon needs to concentrate on war fighting skills and real training. Not social modification, etc. …

The US has immense power and capabilities that aren't tapped. We aren't on a war footing. If we dedicated our economy to a war like we did in the 1940s our military would be beyond anything anyone else could field. But we lack the political will to make the hard choices in peace time as we have in most of our history.

At last! Somebody has said something good about the US!! Thank you Armand!
It's a blessing to be reminded of who we are and how lucky we are, never mind the constant media complaining…

A votre service mon cher ami…

Armand

Yes, it most certainly has been.

smithco +1

But we lack the political will to make the hard choices in peace time as we have in most of our history.

Bingo !

The US firepower currently deployed in the Med, etc. could make many of Iran's military targets, oil industry and nuke plants smoking rubble. And limit CD as we have no need to target civilian population centers. As Hamas and Russia does.

Somebody has said something good about the US!!

I and my former military comrades say good things about the US. But as former and retired members of the military as well as some active duty. We know what real leadership is and what it takes to be capable and effective leaders. We don't see that.

But we do see how under the current US leadership is handling the most powerful military on the planet. But I've talked about this before … We need real leadership. As well as getting all the woke, DEI, CRT, Green, influences out of the military. Remember the mission … preparing to go to war and win …

Yes, all those things matter, Legion, if we want to stay on top. But it can only help us to remind ourselves when something is going well. In the long list of things we could do without, I could add a couple myself.

Or a well done to….

USS Carney, on shipping patrol right now and taking out Iranian proxy drones and missiles fired toward Israel or Israeli and other shipping. With SM2s and ESSMs, Carney is very capable of handling this job. My understanding is that Carney is not necessarily the Houthi target but has been involved in answering distress signals and rendering assistance, which includes destroying inbound Houthi weapons against alleged Israeli shipping.

The Houthi strikes are not exactly the sinking of the Maine, which resulted in a US declared war after frenzied reporting in the "yellow press" in 1898. The ROE for Carney are being executed properly, IMO. Cool and professional. But I feel certain there are other plans if circumstances change.

The Houthi strikes are not exactly the sinking of the Maine, which resulted in a US declared war after frenzied reporting in the "yellow press" in 1898. The ROE for Carney are being executed properly, IMO. Cool and professional. But I feel certain there are other plans if circumstances change..

What a coup for the Houthi if they damage or sink a US warship, eh? Not like a determined enemy couldn't conduct a series of predictable moves to sucker you into a trap.

I think Iran wants to provoke us into going after the Houthis, then recruit more fighters and raise the frenzy level off our apparent aggression. The systems on the Carney are not foolproof, nor do I know what the Houthis get from Iran in the way of weapons. But the Pentagon has said they are ready to take steps if this game goes too far. Carney has sophisticated systems for dealing with the current status, but it seems like we are on the verge of a bigger response based on veiled responses from the Navy.

All this sitting tight really ticks me off but Legion and I were snipped here a while ago for our not very subtle ideas about dealing with the Iranian Navy.

A couple of other Arleigh Burkes have destroyed Houthi weapons in the last month, once while dealing with Somali pirates onboard a commercial vessel.
They are deliberately asking us to attack them, IMO…

I think Iran wants to provoke us into going after the Houthis, then recruit more fighters and raise the frenzy level off our apparent aggression.

My solution to that is attack both the Houthis and Iran with the TLAMs, Drones, etc. we have in the region. As well as striking the Iranian proxies we have been attacked by in Syria and Iraq.

If that upsets Iraq. Maybe they need to remember what happened when they tried to use conventional tactics vs. the USA. However, they know that we have 2 Carrier Grps and TLAM armed Sub within range. Iraq may just be complaining about the US attacking Iran's Shia Militias in Iraq. Just for local consumption.

What our leadership needs to understand that sooner or later US troops will die by Iran's weapons. In the hands of the Houthis, etc. There already are a number of our troops suffering TBI. That is for the rest of their lives. If the US waits until 1 of our troops are killed, then our attacks will be too late.

A comment as an outsider from a long term stalwart American allied country if I may.

I dont think there would any well informed Australians who would feel that American military power is in decline BUT we are all uneasy about the stability and reliability of Washington.

The previous Administration going isolationist and degrading relationships and alliances was a worry at the time and since it looks like the same attitudes may soon return to the White House does make Americas traditional allies a little nervous.

Will Americas allies be able to trust and rely on the next White House team?

we are all uneasy about the stability and reliability of Washington.

As are many, many, US citizens.

Will Americas allies be able to trust and rely on the next White House team?

We will have to see, I believe so … However, currently we have a similar situation. IMO things can't get any worse. At least I hope …

You may be aware that one candidate plans big changes for the way American government works. We just don't know for sure. If we become more authoritarian, our leadership will have trouble maintaining stability, IMO. But we have institutionalized our military leadership and the mechanics of running the government. It has survived many a crisis regardless of who thinks they alone can fix it.

No es la hora. Es el reloj.

(It's not the hour. It is the clock.)

You may be aware that one candidate plans big changes for the way American government works. We just don't know for sure. If we become more authoritarian, our leadership will have trouble maintaining stability, IMO

You mean POTUS 45 who worked to DECENTRALIZE the Federal Government and whose core campaign appeal was REDUCING the reach and power of government and sending more decision-making authority back to the States and Localities?? The POTUS who pushed deregulation and a simplified tax code that reduces government control over the economy? THAT guy? You're worried he's an Authoritarian?? ROFLMAO!

We HAVE an authoritarian-minded POTUS and Handlers NOW under '46, who has weaponized the Federal bureaucracy and legal system against its opponents, is deeply engaged in enforcing political policies via control over the banking system -- The Fed prints money and lends to BigBanks/Wall St who have agreed to ESG scores and implementing corporate DEI policies as a determining factor for getting access to loans and investment. So if you're WalMart and need capital, you need to prove your political loyalty with the right ESG scores. And then when the same folks demand you say, make a big show about cutting off advertising dollars to Twitter/X to force Musk to comply, you do it.

Why do you think Musk is being targeted so heavily? Why ALL of his businesses are being audited and investigated, why his Starship Superheavy rocket is not getting swift launch approvals?

Authoritarianism is HERE, and it wasn't because of Orangemanbad. WAR is here, and it wasn't because of Orangemanbad. Economic dysfunction and recession is here, and it's no because of Orangemanbad.

But we have institutionalized our military leadership and the mechanics of running the government. It has survived many a crisis regardless of who thinks they alone can fix it.

EXCEPT -- we have never, ever had such a deeply politicized military leadership that is more interested in their next star than military readiness, warfighting and troop morale. Just look at the bloody debacle of Afghanistan, an "onside" forced defeat and NOBODY has been held accountable. Not one senior office or Pentagon Critter or State Department Weenie suffered any penalty. Circle the wagons, attacked their critics, destroyed a few lower ranking officers who spoke up, and get their gravy train moving after a bit.

It feels like we've developed the military of 1939 France. Good equipment, good individual NCOs and lower ranking officers, but execrable senior leadership and war planners.

SB…Too much here to answer in detail. I am never going to agree with the 1939 France comparison.

I am never going to agree on the "I alone can fix it" form of government or whatever you thought you saw in the last admin.

There is no recession.

I suspect cognitive issues with both presumed candidates. My contention that much of the government runs itself in spite of elected and appointed officials stands.

And you say that we have an authoritarian POTUS who is infirm and incompetent and doesn't actually run anything. An authoritarian who does not lead. Cannot lead. I don't agree with this. Hillary, Obama, I disagree that they are running the country.

I am never going to agree on the "I alone can fix it" form of government or whatever you thought you saw in the last admin.

I saw a former moderate Democrat turned Republican govern largely from the traditional Center with many policies that were little different from Truman, Ike and JFK. Who asserted the primary job of American government was focusing on the American people, that the Federal government was too large and wanted to reduce it in scop, Ike and Reagan style, that taxes should be reduced JFK-style, etc. That the focus of American foreign policy should, as is traditional for any sane nation, be focused on American national security and betterment. Oh, he made mean and funny tweets. Oh noes!!

And we *are* in a recession since July 2022 when the US economy contracted for three consecutive Quarters -- the Biden folks just redefined the meaning of recession. Kind of like San Francisco can claim things are safer because there are fewer arrests….

And you say that we have an authoritarian POTUS who is infirm and incompetent and doesn't actually run anything. An authoritarian who does not lead. Cannot lead. I don't agree with this. Hillary, Obama, I disagree that they are running the country.

No, we have the First American Oligarchy in charge. Biden is not a leader, he stammers through his teleprompter speeches and then shuffles around the stage like a wayward Roomba before a handler guides him away. He's the face for the Oligarchy which is Authoritarian. And Incompetent and Corrupt.

Who are they? Who is commanding the military? Who sent the Navy to the ME? Who ordered the aid to the IDF?

So somebody must have gotten us out of the recession.

I am not happy to see you mention Ike, a personal hero of mine, in conjunction with Trump, who is not on my list of great commanders, never mind leaders, but that is personal opinion.

Who are they? Who is commanding the military? Who sent the Navy to the ME? Who ordered the aid to the IDF?

The Senior Cabinet, Chief of Staff and the professional bureaucracy are pulling the strings – and someone from his basement. Sure would be nice to get a visitors log for Joe's Delaware mansion -- but since it's a private residence they don't have to keep track.

So somebody must have gotten us out of the recession.

Have you looked around? They didn't they redefined the meaning of recession.

I am not happy to see you mention Ike, a personal hero of mine, in conjunction with Trump, who is not on my list of great commanders, never mind leaders, but that is personal opinion.

Fine, you don't like the guy, his speaking style or hair cut rubs you wrong, I get it. But he was a highly successful president with a booming economy (until Covid), revitalized alliances (after playing carrot and stick with NATO), fewer wars and more peace.

SB+1

Ike, a personal hero of mine, in conjunction with Trump, who is not on my list of great commanders, never mind leaders, but that is personal opinion.

We can all have opinions. And Ike I rate very highly.

SB, we just don't agree. No personal offense meant.

I rate Ike as a man of substance, decency, character, and above all, integrity. We might agree that these qualities have been in short supply in American leaders at various periods during our lifetimes. I am praying for another Ike.

"I am praying for another Ike." – or another Truman. I'd be happy with either. But we got what we got…It's gonna be Orangemanbad vs probably Gavin Newsom, or maybe Michelle Obama or even Hillary Clinton as wild cards. Whoever the Democrat is, Biden will bow out during the 2024 primary.

Or Haley. Or Cheney. With guys this age, the legal matters, and the obvious changes and impact of running on both, you never know. There are trials – and then there are trials. The bench is not deep on either side. It's been a long time since I voted for someone instead of against someone.

These wars need a clearer philosophical approach from the US. Actions need to be taken. Congress is unable to manage its own basic functions. I worry that we are losing opportunities to reduce Russian and Iranian impact on the future balance of power.

It's not that I don't care about the border crisis. But the political fighting is decades long at this point. Our overseas enemies are in our face right now, and our proxies need us to survive. Tie the border to something else or find another way to force the issue.

Who are they? Who is commanding the military? Who sent the Navy to the ME? Who ordered the aid to the IDF?

Btw, we've already had something like this happen. When Woodrow Wilson suffered a debilitating stroke, his wife Edith and his top staff ran America for over a year without his leadership – from the Fall of 1919 until January 21, 2021. So don't be surprised that it can happen again.

Tie the border to something else or find another way to force the issue.

Well that may hold some water. However, with 8 million+ illegal aliens having entered the US. Including many criminals of all kinds, drugs killing US citizens, sex trafficker, terrorists, etc. Plus 1.7 million "got-a-away". Which was a planned, supported and gov't and party sanctioned and still is. One estimate believes the US population will change by 6% with all the illegals in the US.

The end game – somehow make all these illegals in US able to vote. Which is believed by many will give one party more votes and abilities to win elections. I and others can see no other reason for open borders.

How many Americans will die from drugs supplied by China to the Cartels ?

How many Americans will be killed, raped, etc. from crime committed by gang and cartel members that came in with the illegal aliens ?

How many of those who are sex trafficked, etc. will have to suffer and die ? I guess they don't count. Collateral Damage ?

Are all those American deaths be considered collateral damage for one group's end game ?

It's not that I don't care about the border crisis. But the political fighting is decades long at this point. Our overseas enemies are in our face right now, and our proxies need us to survive. Tie the border to something else or find another way to force the issue.

Mo more lazy omnibus spending bills full of shite covered bonbons and poison pills. Border Security funding does not belong in a foreign aid bill, and desperately needs to be addressed. The Democrats have deliberately opened the southern border wide to import a vast new underclass they can farm for votes and street support, the nation bedamned.

And another $61 USD BILLION for Ukraine with scanty oversight? we're now up to, what a QUARTER TRILLION $$$$!?! That's enough money to repair every major road, rail line and bridge in American.

No denying the border crisis, Although drugs are at least partly a self inflicted wound. We buy em, we use em- right or wrong. The crack epidemic was absolutely crazy and all but unstoppable in the 80s. Still a problem. We need a total reorg on the Border, the Dems will very likely give on at least some things. We all want it fixed for real. Get that ball rolling. But don't tie it to defeating Putin.

Which reminds me – didn't Nancy Reagan take some responsibility for assisting her husband near the end of his second term? I would not want to see Melania or Jill put in this position. Maybe this is where VPs come in….yikes to that also.

We all want it fixed for real. Get that ball rolling. But don't tie it to defeating Putin.

Agreed. Have a Border Bill for Border security, a Ukraine War assistance bill for that, and a Israel assistance bill for that.

Which reminds me – didn't Nancy Reagan take some responsibility for assisting her husband near the end of his second term?

No, Reagan's health issue cane 5 years after he left office when he was diagnosed with Alzheimer's. In Woodrow Wilson's case he suffered a severe stroke that left him barely communicative, his wife and inside team ran the country for over year.

What has happened to America?

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Armand

SB you are right. Reagan showed occasional changes in speech patterns as he aged in office, but was not found to have dementia.

Thank you Armand. It's very rare to see the middle ground so well covered.

My pleasure my friend… (smile)

Armand

What has happened to America?

"Details at 11" …

Why Join the Military to Defend Everyone Except Americans?

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Armand

That seems to be one of the words on the street. Plus, poorly instructed students at all levels. Indoctrinated with woke, DEI, CRT, Anti-Amercian, etc., lessons. Most Americans have little to no military knowledge or experience. They know Vietnam not the Greatest Generation.

With the Army's recruiting being 30% short. Only makes many units less combat ready. E.g. a 9 man[or woman ?] Infantry Squad will be short 1-3 troopers. Making that Squad less effective. And that will be the situation for all Infantry Squads in the Bn/Bde, etc. Tank crews may be short a crewman or an FA gun crew …

Yes, the gov't's woke support of DEI, CRT/1619, Transgenderism, etc. has 0 to do with combat readiness and effectiveness. Why fight for a nation that had slaves ? Etc., etc., etc. …

Interesting to read the actual poll. Young females especially are not interested and they really skew the numbers. Over 65 are far more likely to fight to defend the country. Imagine us in any combat role! My reflexes slowed to a relative crawl some time ago…

I don't think young people are worried about woke stuff in the military and polls prove it. If it was that, it would be a lot easier to fix. They are attracted to other career options and jobs continue to be plentiful and varied. But it looks like the biggest turn off is fear of becoming a casualty. Maybe they just need to realize that the job is to make the bad guys into casualties….

Here are the totals from DOD based on their own research, extensive polling of 16-21 years olds around the end of 2022.

Possibility of physical injury/death
70%
Possibility of PTSD or other emotional/psychological issues
65%
Leaving family and friends
58%
Other career interests
46%
Dislike of military lifestyle
40%
Too long of a commitment
36%
Possibility of interference with college education
35%
Required to live in places I don't want to live in
35%
Don't believe I would qualify
33%
Possibility of sexual harassment/assault
33%

Very interesting DOD poling.

Young females especially are not interested and they really skew the numbers.

That should have been no surprise. Regardless of what some women organizations say, about equality, etc. Most, the vast majority of females don't want to be in the military. And it has been that way forever.

I don't think young people are worried about woke stuff in the military and polls prove it.

They may not see woke, DEI, etc. a concern. They are used to it with their indoctrination in school, etc.

However, "old timers" like me see it as getting in the way of training time and combat readiness, etc. It wastes time even putting it in the training schedule, etc. Kids who have never been in the military have no clue. About so many things. I'll admit I may be wrong … I'll freely admit I'm a dinosaur … 🦕🦖

Don't believe I would qualify
33%

The Pentagon has been saying for a long time, that 70% of military age people won't qualify. Failure to past the mental and physical tests, police record, etc.

But I heard a report today about illegal aliens going into the military ? Not sure how that would work ? I don't think they came here for that reason.

But it looks like the biggest turn off is fear of becoming a casualty. Maybe they just need to realize that the job is to make the bad guys into casualties….

That should be no surprise either. None of us wanted to be a statistic, obviously. But again the "kids" have no idea about the military. Then what they see in the movies, TV, etc. And with less & less parents having served in the military neither parent nor child has a clue.

I know we were trained in first aid, medevac, etc. However, we understood, we were trained to be the hunter not the hunted. Part of that may have been because most of our Senior NCOs and Officers had served in Vietnam. We would use our superior training, weapons, etc. to kill them before they kill you and your comrades. It was pretty much a given.

Maybe this generation has a different mindset, outlook, etc. ?

Could be, I am not really sure. In general they seem rather self abosorbed, spoiled but this could be my age and my own less than privileged life experiences. I also was thinking that ages 16-21 are not even close to being as mature as we were at that age. They should market to 18-30 years old.

You are right about family. We had the influence of parents and extended family who served in WW2 and understood the military differently.

But I still don't quite get what's going on overall….👨‍🦳

In general they seem rather self abosorbed, spoiled but this could be my age and my own less than privileged life experiences. I also was thinking that ages 16-21 are not even close to being as mature as we were at that age.

Well you won't get an argument from me. "Out of adversity comes strength."

Many in the Greatest Generation lived thru the depression. Worked hard physical jobs, etc. They were already a bit hardened to the realities of life. Today … what adversity do many children have to deal with today ?

+1 Tango

That's the reason I left the Army. Why die for Somalia or the Balkans? Both could go on just as they are, or change entirely, and it wouldn't make a ha'porth of difference to the US – or to the people who would be asked to die for them. I lost three friends in Iraq and Afghanistan (and a couple of others wounded); nothing of significance changed, and they are still dead or maimed.

Let ‘em fix themselves. That's why we have a Navy and an Air Force, and two oceans.

Oh, and Western Europe: two generations of American high school kids was enough. You'll sort it out, we know. You always have. We have our hands full here. We're tired of subsidizing your lifestyle, health care systems, and social democracy, and getting freeloading and condescension in return. Good luck- we'll be hanging with the English-speaking countries, who will at least pull their own weight.

Oh, and Western Europe: two generations of American high school kids was enough.

Only two? My family history in Western Europe:

Grandfather: WW1
Uncles: WW2
Father: 2nd Armor, garrison duty in Germany
Sister & Friends & Relatives: USAF, US Army, garrison duty in Germany & Italy

Wow!… that's a warrior family…!

Armand

Some good points nine pound round. May your comrades RIP … And thank you for your time in the US Army.

That's why we have a Navy and an Air Force, and two oceans.

Yes and that is currently long overdue. With US Troops in Syria and Iraq have had 80+ attacks by air. With very little effective response.

SBmini + 10 … I thank them for their service.

@ninepoundround

I lost three friends in Iraq and Afghanistan (and a couple of others wounded); nothing of significance changed, and they are still dead or maimed.

I completely empathize with you. I recently lost a friend who decided not to continue living with chronic pain from an injury from his service in Iraq. Not all who return come back in one piece in body or mind.

@Legion, likewise for the service of you and yours. That's why the decision to send troops into harms way should not be taken lightly and without clear goals, nor should they suffer escalating attacks without a response to enhance their protection as best as practical. Every serviceperson is somebody's loved one -- even the grumpy hard-a$$ ones!

SB Minis … I agree completely …

Interesting…I grew up in a family of vets and some were hard-@#$, but not much in favor of wars. Partly because of no clear reasons for fighting, partly because I think they had seen too much. As they got older, I tried to get some questions answered, but they were mostly having none of it. They loved the VFW and the Legion. Some became Post Commanders. I think it helped them carry some baggage. They knew stuff.

Two grandfathers in WW1, one of them in the RAF. In WW2, one uncle an Army major, one an artillery sergeant, one a B-17 navigator, and my dad, the youngest, was a B-17 ball turret gunner.

I am sorry they are all gone, I wish I could ask them what they think about the military and the politics of today. But I doubt they would say much, they never did. Whatever doubts they had seemed to be centered around choices by leaders. But head-shaking mostly, not many comments. It was just the way they were.

As always, thank you all for your service…and sincere regret for your losses.

Interesting…I grew up in a family of vets and some were hard-@#$, but not much in favor of wars. Partly because of no clear reasons for fighting, partly because I think they had seen too much

Sounds familiar! It was a shock to me as a youngster when one Halloween I had a costume concept, but my dad's old army boots were covered in paint (when he left service I guess it wasn't as hard a$$ on separation in the 1950s, he came home with helmet and a bunch of uniform things). So I asked the man who lived next door if I could borrow his army boots. He said, "Oh, I never served."

What?!?! Mind blowing, I didn't know any adult male at that time who hadn't served in the UK or US military.

Tort +1

Yes, it is pretty amazing that many did not serve in WWII. But many had important jobs here. Or some were 4F …

During the war there were maybe 60 thousand people working at GE nearby here where I still live. Lots of vital work. Total effort. Where is all that singleminded purpose today?