"Centurion Mk Is in 1945" Topic

I'm aware only a handful arrived and they didn't see action, but how were they intended to be used? Were they just a straight replacement vehicle for Cromwells, Shermans etc within the existing organisation?

I'm gradually acquiring some NWE 1944-5 stuff and it occurred to me that it might be fun to get set up for some battles between high quality Allied kit versus rubbish German. Just as a fun inversion of the usual really. So instead of Panthers and Tigers versus Shermans, I was thinking Comets and Centurions versus StuG IIIs and clapped-out Panzer IVs.

What would a front line Centurion-equipped formation have looked like?

I expect the Centurions would be a straight-up replacement for whatever frontline tank the regiment was equipped with. They didn't produce CS versions, so either keep the current CS tank or put in a regular Centurion in replacement.
IIRC the company was 5-3 tank platoons plus a command platoon of 3 tanks.
For the Germans a couple options are Hetzers and the Pz IV Alkatt, which was a pz4 hull with a JPZ4 superstructure bolted on top. Also RSO's equipped with 88mm AA guns.

There was a standardised WE for Armoured units approved in early May 1945, to be adopted by all Regiments regardless of whether they had cruisers or infantry tanks. It had the same Squadron org for the most part as had been used before, so Sqn HQ of four tanks and five Troops, each of three tanks. then three Sqns and HQ Sqn, plus four tanks at RHQ.

I can't recall seeing anything on which units got Centurions first in real life, as to whether they were prioritised for Indep Bdes or were going to Armd Divs.

Gary

5th RTR was the first Regiment to be equipped with Centurians, but that was well after the war. Looking at the production figures, they are in neat multiples of 50 or so, so a Regiment (or two or four) at a time.

There were six prototypes which turned up n 1945, which sounds like two troops to me.

Like Comets, I think the plan was to equip entire Regiments , not mix tank types up, but if you are just looking at few Centurians for your game, I'd go with a Comet Regiment supplemented with either a troop of Centurians per squadron or a single Squadron of Centurians and the rest Comets.

Conquerors were assigned at a rate of nine tanks per Centurian Regiment, so that might a model to use for a Comet or Sherman Regiment with attached Centurians.

Yes, similar info to the above, 21AG RAC Liaison Letter No.5 of August 1945 mentions the six prototypes in NWE post VE-Day, with the intention to ship them back to the UK FVPE to see how they'd fared under operational use.

The outline in Sep 1945 was to have just one Armd Div in NWE (7th, with Comets), and Armd Bde (31st, with Churchills). 6th Armd Div was to be on the ME establishment with Comets. Centurions were to go to 7th Armd Div it seems, then 6th, as they became available, displacing Comets. Wiki reckons 5 RTR didn't get their Centurions until Dec 1946!

Definitely sounds like tagging a few Centurions onto an existing unit for a what if table top encounter in May 1945.

Gary

They have one of those centuriOns in the Bovington tank museum

martin

I can't recall seeing anything on which units got Centurions first in real life, as to whether they were prioritised for Indep Bdes or were going to Armd Divs.

On a quick reading, Centurion seems to have been considered as more of an "heavy cruiser" than an infantry tank, so I presume that the armoured divisions were the expected customers in 1945.

As for organisation, British tank troops were usually assigned three tanks per troop, so that same organisation would presumably have been followed for the Centurion (conveniently making two troops out of the six early tanks, as mentioned previously).

(As an exception, the Sherman troops were organised on four tank basis in 1944, but by my understanding that was due to a desire to provide one Firefly to each troop, while not actually having enough Fireflies around at the time to do so with three tank troops.)

I had a look at the regimental history of the RTR 1945-1975 and nothing clearly stands out. I think that it would have mentioned if they had mixed Comet/Centurion units.

One thing that is mentioned is that B Squadron of 4th RTR was sent to Abadan in Iran in 1950 with 12 Centurions and 3 Cromwell so it looks like Cromwell were retained as CS or Command vehicles. The first issue of Centurions was in December 1946 to 1st and 5th RTR and the MkIII started production in 1947.

Interesting thread , l ,m often tempted to add some early Centurions to my collection , but was thinking of facing them off against WW2 Soviet armour, mainly the T34 / 85 .
Against the Germans
I think the British commanders would have been keen to try em out in action if they had been available earlier or the war lasted longer ( perish the thought)if l was using them l would be inclined to use a squadron at 1:1 level .
Reading this thread l might do just that, prob agin A few scattered hetzers , Jadgpanzer panzers and volkssturm with panzerfausts,

Interesting thread , l ,m often tempted to add some early Centurions to my collection , but was thinking of facing them off against WW2 Soviet armour, mainly the T34 / 85.

If you are thinking of some 1945-46 Western/Soviet confrontations, where the British get to field Centurions, then you might also want to issue the Red Army with some of the new kit that was just about to come into service in May 1945. IS-3 heavy tank comes immediately to my mind.

@ Griefbringer

Yep, you're reading my mind. Very-late-war Germans can fight very-late-war British or very-late-war Soviet, and then of course, the two latter can fight each other on a what-if basis. If the British can have Centurions the Russkis can clearly have JS3s, both of which appear to have arrived in plausible numbers in the autumn.

The Airfix JS3 needs a new turret and doesn't have the inward-sloping lower hull sides, but that aside, it is actually the right shape.

…you might also want to issue the Red Army with some of the new kit that was just about to come into service in May 1945. IS-3 heavy tank comes immediately to my mind.

You might also add T-44s to the Soviet inventory. And D-44 85mm AT guns. All late-war kit that was just coming on line.

But along with the IS-3s … any of that new stuff would be in small proportions compared to the massive numbers of T-34s and IS-2s (and ISU-152s and SU-100s, etc.).

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

@ Mark

Yes, you could rationalise IS3s and suchlike to the extent the British have Centurions and the Americans Pershings. Either each side gets the odd one or two, or both sides get a few.

I'd be minded to have a few SU-85s still in there too. They didn't stop making them till late 1944, and there wasn't a lot of German kit left that could have destroyed them all by 1945.

There's an article in Airfix Magazine August 1969 on making the Airfix JS III more accurate.

I should also add that there is an article on converting the Airfix Centurion to a MkI but it is a lot of work as the hull has to be lengthened by a few mm.