"the significance of RE Lee" Topic

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The Leftists denouncing America's Confederate monuments as legacies of racism and slavery are perpetuating a vicious lie. In reality, these statues are symbols of national reunification and of the forgiveness that comes with peace. The Confederate monuments were part of the American mythology that sprang out of the Civil War. That struggle had been, in the account of the post-war generations, a bloody tragedy from which the nation emerged, reunited and refined with new purpose.

…in this hour of reunion, reconciliation, of absolute forgetfulness of old strife, we can all see how, in those five quiet years at Lexington, [Lee] symbolized and marked out the future for every Southern man as it has come to pass and bade us live in liberal and lofty fashion, with hearts unspoiled by hate and eyes clear to see the needs of a new and mightier day in a new and mightier land.

Alderman connects peace and the honor given to Lee as part of the "absolute forgetfulness of old strife." This is a crucial point: peace requires forgetting. A war can only truly end with amnesty. The word "amnesty" shares a root, in the Greek, with "amnesia" or forgetting. To have peace and forgiveness we must literally provide an "amnesty" or a "forgetting" to our enemies. The same linguistic phenomenon in found in Latin. The Latin word meaning "to pardon"—ignoscere—literally means "to not know."

War unleashes titanic human passions. Left to itself, every war by nature is a total war of annihilation. Every act of violence within a war is itself the source of new recriminations and new violence. Without a peace treaty and the forgetting that comes with it, every war would go on forever or until one side completely annihilated the other.

A peace treaty bounds the terror and horror of war. The amnesty that comes with it, however, cannot bring true justice. In ordinary human life, every murderer must face judgment. Not so in a war bracketed by a peace treaty. To have peace, the victor chooses not to hunt down every enemy soldier and bring him to justice for killing the victor's own troops.

If the victor were to choose the path of supposedly perfect justice then the peace treaty would be meaningless: the war and violence would continue until every last enemy soldier had been killed or punished. There is little incentive for the enemy to surrender in a total war; therefore, the conflict cannot end before extermination.

In order for there to be peace without annihilation, human beings must abandon a commitment to perfect justice. They must accept the tragic dimension to life. In this world we cannot have complete satisfaction. Whether we like it or not, we are beings bounded by mortality and by our own fundamental neediness.

The political utopian, however, refuses to accept reality. He cannot reconcile himself to the tragic dimension of life. A perfect world is possible if only we can rid ourselves of the manifestations of True Evil that hold back the springing forth of True Righteousness and Goodness.

Lee, another man who helped reduce the post war violence and bitterness.Stopped any thought of guerilla actions.

Wait twenty years for this discussion. Either the politics will have become sane, or no discussion will be permitted.

A nation divided against itself cannot stand.

Indeed, which is why forcing people who wished to leave to remain against their will seemed a rather odd strategy and hardly something to boast about.

… In reality, these statues are symbols of national reunification and of the forgiveness that comes with peace…

And a new generation has a different opinion.

I have zero problem with the markers and monuments that were erected in the years in the decade or two following the Civil War.

But it seems that 1917 – 1924 – if the article below is credible – is a bit after the Civil War and perhaps is more to enshrine values – versus honoring someone and seeking national reconciliation.

The history of monuments – appears to be linked to the "cause" – certainly reflected by the timing of many these monuments erected between the 1920s and 1960s.

Quote from Article "Both Lee and Jackson parks were strictly whites-only according to the terms of McIntire's deeds to the city"

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The points of divisiveness are generally true for most people on both the left and right hand side of politics. I also find it a strategy some employ believing that division or marginalization makes one side strong than the other

Bill question. This new generation with these ideas. Did they fight in the Civil war? Is it their fathers and grandfathers (some then still alive when these monuments were built)? Were they slaves on the plantations? Are they even a majority, or a minority of self righteous, self loathing brainwashed indoctrinated prigs? Are they individuals dividing the country in order to obtain votes by using race as the great divider? Are these not the same youths currently marching in the streets shouting "From the river to the sea!" Advocating the extermination of all Jews in in Israel? Supporting Hamas and the Palestinian haters who killed over 35 plus U.S. citizens and took more hostage… so attacked the US. Hating all things white, including themselves. Of course I can throw in their pet politicians.

We are supposed to kowtow to their wants, like a bunch of screaming spoiled, self-indulged children, who have no idea what real hardship is.

How many of their relatives fought and died for the North? I believe I'm now up to 10. I never heard about any of my great great grandfathers, grandfather or father complain about these monuments and buildings. They would seem to have had more reason too than todays over indulged whiners. Maybe they were to busy fighting in WW1, WW2, Korea, living through the depression and actually working for a living and paying for their own school.

Your thoughts?

Ungrateful little yuppie larvae.


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This is going well, isn't it?

I find the idea that you are only allowed to object to something if you were actually there jaw dropping. I don't have to have been in Auschwitz to know it was A Bad Thing. Nor do I have to have been a slave to know that slavery is A Bad Thing.

This new generation with these ideas. Did they fight in the Civil war?

Doesn't matter. It's politics. Most of these statues are in cities where too many people don't want them.

" I find the idea that you are only allowed to object to something if you were actually their jaw dropping. I don't have to have been in Auschwitz to know it was A Bad Thing. Nor do I have to have been a slave to know that slavery is A Bad Thing."

They tell me I have no say in a woman choosing or not choosing to have an abortion, or have the child. Even if I'm the father.

Many were forced to take Covid shots against their will, or lose their jobs.

What if in the future some decide that since Nazis were evil, Auschwitz must be destroyed. Or … a new generation of German youth grow up idolizing the Nazis and decide Auschwitz must destroyed because they are offended.

There is no end to this.

"Doesn't matter. It's politics. Most of these statues are in cities where too many people don't want them."

We both know this has no end. Also these are a vocal minority with pet politicians buying votes.

You end up with things like this. Of course this includes John James Audubon himself. But since they are currently too busy advocating for the extermination of Jews, maybe this will take a back burner for now.

Subject: Some Bird Names Are Changing Because They're 'Exclusionary,' 'Harmful'

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but reconciliation is a good thing

Martin let me try this. My point is the men who were alive when many of these statues went up, were participants or children of them. They fought for the Union and did not destroy these statues. Who had more right to make that decision than they? We all agree slavery was evil. Most have agreed with that for a long time. Why is the current generations hatred of slavery so much more important than others of previous generations? So much more important, that NOW all memories of that history must be destroyed to appease some deity that will never be sated? When I walked by a statue of a confederate or Union soldier, I thought about the war and wanted to read more about the Civil War and about the person. It increased my interest in history, I later talked about the civil war on most CW historical battlefields and many other locations. I donate to battlefield preservation. The statues are history.

What is destroyed today can never be replaced. Future generations may not feel the same.

My ancestors were from areas conquered by Rome. I'm sure some were made slaves of the Romans, possibly fought in the arenas or were brutalized by the Romans. I don't demand that all buildings and visages of Rome be destroyed because they offend me and remind me of my ancestors subjugation and servitude. How they were treated as barbarians and lesser individuals.

I was not there and it did not affect me. It's the past and should be remembered as history.

I didn't want to get involved with this one. But timing keeps coming up. I'd like to note that the "Bomber" Harris statue went up 47 years after the end of WWII, that one of the sculptors involved with Charlottesville's Lee had just finished a Grant in DC (completed 1924) and I've seen in Germany a statue memorializing an 1866 Hanoverian jaeger unit--erected in 1919.

New political causes get posters, songs, plays and films. Statues tend to note the passing of a generation, and I bet there's a longer interval between war and statue in losers, everyone being broke and the country devastated at the conclusion of the war.

To take a statue out of a public park is defensible. Melting it down was vindictive vandalism. If Italy destroyed every work of art dedicated to a cause the Italians no longer supported, the tourists would soon stay home, and rightly so.

This was a scary article because the tone was so emotional and the content so one sided.I am weary of hearing how the Left is destroying America. Or the Right. We are all in some kind of bad dream. But this was a particularly weird description of the Left as some sort of creepy thing from a horror movie.. Just my opinion, doc.

The real issue for me is that slavery before the war, the war, and racial violence and oppression after the war was veiled by a deliberate cloud of deceit for so long. But once it began to be lifted, I saw no point in blaming anyone today. But it turns out that one man's statue is another man's symbol of oppression.

The answer would be compromise, but we have lately disallowed that as a response to any issue, even though our freedom depends on it.

If Lee's statue is turned into a new symbol of compromise, if it stands for all men being created equal, maybe it will have been transformed for the better. But it could also have been preserved as a reminder that living up to "all men are created equal" has never been easy. We don't need to destroy the past. We don't need to live it either. And we sure don't have to blame each other for it.

Tort, the article expresses well the way that I and millions more see the present shape of the culture and of events. We revere the Declaration, and we too see "a long train of abuses" all tending in the same direction that "evince a design" to enslave us. You don't see that pattern, but we do. Progressivism taints and then destroys everything it touches — and it aspires to touch every aspect of our lives.

Well, doc, I do feel sincerely sorry that you feel threatened.

I have never felt that way even from radical right or left wing extremists. IMO most people in this country still seem to value the center and hold moderate views, are willing to help others, work hard.

But I respect your beliefs and concerns as a fellow citizen.

Tort, of course most people are in the center, and thank God for that. But that was the case in 1774 and in 1860 also. Revolutions, good or bad, are more MADE by small groups of activists than mass movements, though they may become that later. How many Bolsheviks were there? How many committed Nazis? The Sons of Liberty were a mob but the men directing them were fewer than a dozen.

But the main enemy are not humans but a set of very wrong ideas, an ideology. Ideas have terrible power, especially among those who are poorly educated. Which our culture mostly is, by design.

Here Tort

From NPR. Even NPR admits it was done in secret and all names hidden.
This quote particular caught my attention:

"Today the statue comes down and we are one small step closer to a more perfect union," said then-mayor Nikuyah Walker."

I would laugh, but it is really too sad that she may actually believe it to be true.

Subject: Robert E. Lee Confederate statue in Charlottesville melted down : NPR


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Doc do you ask a question which we know the answer to in order to invite comparison? I respect your right to an opinion and you may feel threatened, but I would not equate the reality of perceived threats to your point of view to the threats and physical dangers against Jews right now.

35th, there should have been a better compromise than this on the statue. It was a mixed bag for sure. I stopped worshipping Lee a long time ago, but I would not denigrate him in this way, like an execution, out of respect for others who sincerely see him differently. Nor would I want him to continue as a public hero. The bottom line of his cause for many people is that all men are not created equal. As that realization has been allowed to surface and be discussed, something had to give.

Put up a new statue of Tubman, or someone like her, representing a new birth of freedom. Keep Lee in a museum, in context. That the donor of Lee's statue wanted him in a whites-only park during the era of the Tulsa massacre is part of that context.

There are a lot of things amiss in the article but consider that the author wrote another piece asking state legislatures to ignore the 2020 election results and instead vote for Trump in order to save the USA from Leftists.

Not a case of asserting election fraud mind you, he says that the Constitution allows them to declare anyone they want a winner in spite of election results and that they should exercise that option to save Western civilization.

I might be off base here but he doesn't seem to be a huge believer in democracy.

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It could give some insight about why he would be so passionate about protecting the legacy of insurrectionists.

I like this too:

Alderman connects peace and the honor given to Lee as part of the "absolute forgetfulness of old strife." This is a crucial point: peace requires forgetting. A war can only truly end with amnesty. The word "amnesty" shares a root, in the Greek, with "amnesia" or forgetting. To have peace and forgiveness we must literally provide an "amnesty" or a "forgetting" to our enemies. The same linguistic phenomenon in found in Latin. The Latin word meaning "to pardon"—ignoscere—literally means "to not know."

And the way to forget is to have a couple thousand monuments shoved in people's faces?

and an old party still relies on racial divisiveness to control. Combined with the moral utopianism of which the OP speaks.

Oh noes, racism against the Confederacy!? Oh the injustice of it all!

I saw a show last night. Man was on the street asking individuals to sign a petition in support of Palestine and Hamas. They all were ready to sign. But the guy said before you sign, I required to read these to you. He read them pieces of the Hamas charter. All walked away and refused to sign. Maybe Colleges and schools should start reading it to students.

To be clear, you think when someone doesnt read or know about something but still has an emotionally charged reaction to it, you think they're idiotas?

A statue of Tubman would be a good thing. Just don't put it in the "blacks" only dorm.

Free speech on campus is in jeopardy: link

The FBI labels parents protesting Progressivism as 'domestic terrorists".

Orthodox Christian doctrine is considered "hate" and targeted by governemtns.

Tort there are multiple statues I am offended by. George Floyd, who I see as a common criminal and drug user, who was resisting officers commands. Did he deserve to die because of it, no. But I don't believe he deserves statues and monuments. Would I tear them down and melt any in secret.., no of course not. My offense buys no one votes either.

What about the statue of Lenin in Washington State?

"Since 1995, the statue has been held in trust waiting for a buyer, standing on temporary display for the last 28 years on a prominent street corner in Fremont. It has become a local landmark, frequently being either decorated or vandalized."

Could any statue be more Un-American than that? But still I would not melt it down, remove it and or hide my works in secret.

Let people learn from it and the folly of his Ways .

"To be clear, you think when someone doesnt read or know about something but still has an emotionally charged reaction to it, you think they're idiotas?"

"Idiotas"???

Are we Hispanic?

No I believe they are uninformed and brainwashed.

If they are marching in support of Palestine and Hamas, shouting "from the river to the sea!!", then they are "idiotas". Since of course those people killed, tortured, raped, burnt and beheaded, our citizens and they are calling for the extermination of the Jewish people. Very Nazi of them. Do you agree APDC?

"Idiotas"???

Are we Hispanic?

I've been boning up on the Mexican Adventure.

🤔 my elitism button is struck more by her complete lack of any historical knowledge.

Here's another source. Hopefully nothing is misspelled in it.

Subject: WATCH: Ben Shapiro Shreds Anti-Israel Student Activist at Oxford University – VINnews


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Sure, just as it was possible to be Confederate and not pro-slavery. As were the Chesnuts. The Palestinians are indeed victims. But not of Israel.

I guess Define what it would be to be pro-Palestinian and not pro Hamas.

Over 50% voted for Hamas.

I guess if you wish to go back to the way things were with Palestinians just living in Gaza. If you are not advocating for Israeli deaths. If you are not shouting "from the river to the sea!". In other words, the status quo without anymore attacks on Israel and a forever peace between the two countries. That could classify as pro Palestinian.

Otherwise you're pro Hamas and pro eradication of the Jews.

I don't believe a lot know what the significance of the protests are. They are non-thinking, brainwashed, indoctrinated followers. They have no concept of the history of that area since biblical times and especially of the barbaric Muslim conquests of these areas. Or the subjugation, murder, rape and enslavement of the Christians and Jews who lived there before the military conquest of Islam.

This is what they support and the reason this all is happening.

Subject: נריה קראוס Neria Kraus on X: "New video – disturbing images. English subtitles. Nova music festival, October 7th. Policemen arrive at the scene, in hopes to save lives after the massacre. This is what they saw. Everyone were murdered. So many beautiful young peace people. This is October 7th. t.co/9oJ5WM0T6v / X


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Another example

Subject: Imshin on X: "Earlier today, IDF dropped notes on Shati "refugee camp" west Gaza City, warning residents to vacate south immediately because IDF was going to strike Hamas terrorists there. In response, the young men of the neighborhood marched in the streets chanting that they wouldn't leave… t.co/WzRIIV1Yf9 / X


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This was a girl many of the MSM lauded before. Now she makes statements like this:

"Come on settlers, we will slaughter you. We are waiting for you in all the cities of the West Bank. What Hitler did to you was a picnic. We will drink your blood and eat your skulls."

Subject: The left's Palestinian cover girl has revealed herself to be a proud, ghoulish Nazi – American Thinker


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So Hamas runs fair and honest elections? But not fair and honest casualty counts.

So those supporters would not leave. Future terrorists, gathered together, basically ready to die right there. Their choice, go for it.

The Israeli victims of Hamas were really the victims of the Palestinians? There is no difference?

I am not about to condone the crimes of Hamas. Can I have empathy for Palestinians who have been trying for decades to live some sort of normal lives with hell routinely breaking loose all around them? Hamas has brought this to them by forcing the Israelis to protect themselves. Or are there no Palestinians just trying to survive the madness. I don't know but that seems unlikely.

Yes, horror stories are everywhere. Crazy fanatics in a suicidal frenzy. Who in their right minds would support these people?

Is this who the 100,000 in DC were on Saturday? How do we know what to think? Fox IS the MSM. They tell us they are America's everything. How does their recent strategy on supporting Israel play out for influencing the US elections next year? Is it just more us vs them? Why is this so different than the Russians' barbaric behavior in Ukraine? Shouldn't we stand against both?

I ask these questions in all sincerity. I stand with Israel. I want Iran dealt with because it will solve the most problems. But I do not see this as a black and white struggle. Hamas and Iran have a complex strategy to diminish the stature of Israel and the US, shifting blame deliberately to widen the war.

I'm sure there were Germans and Japanese who were trying to lead normal lives and wanted to be left alone. We made no exceptions for the "good" German or Japanese. The bombs killed equally. If Israel had done what Hamas did, I would be decrying the Israeli. But they, like we, have been the victims of terrorist attacks for too long and we have always compromised.., always. It is always viewed as weakness by Islamic fundamentalists.

I do believe the majority of Muslims in the area support what happened. It is in their religion. We are unbelieving infidels, therefore less than humans.

APDC your hate of all things confederate, verges on the rabid. So tell us, how many of your relatives fought for the Union, what regiments and names. I can name all mine.
I lost at least 2 and I don't hate like you do. Or is your hate, just the current "in thing", the current "flavor of the academic day"?

I too can trace ancestory back to men who fought on both sides.

Always the accusation of me and others being pro Confederate.

Is there something wrong with being pro-Confederate? Youre welcome to be so if your argument checks out but making things up needs to get stress tested. I find some of these people dont like being challenged because they dont have the answers.

I think if there is an issue technically, it's being Neo-Confederate.

Why not shout I'm a racist, homophobe and others hackneyed leftest norms. The last resort of those without the ability to defend their positions.

I have no need to, you are your own best promoter.

Seriously, I dont think youre a racist or homophobe. I hope that makes you feel better.

APDC your hate of all things confederate, verges on the rabid.

This is actually not true. I simply dont think people who admire the CSA get to make proclamations without backing them up. Most of them cant and they get angry. Generally, I respond to some else's loose mouthed assertion. But really, you dont see me making initial claims about the CSA being bad etc.

I also dont think that the CSA accomplished anything positive and shouldnt be celebrated in USA culture but that isnt quite the same thing as hating it.

To be fair, I did post a thread allowing people to list all the good things that came out of the CSA. Curiously, no one seems to have been able to think of anything. Bill did mention cool flags, and he was right but aside from that, zippo.

The thread is still open if you'd like to contribute something:

TMP link

So tell us, how many of your relatives fought for the Union, what regiments and names. I can name all mine.
I lost at least 2 and I don't hate like you do. Or is your hate, just the current "in thing", the current "flavor of the academic day"?

I have ancestors who fought on both sides.

Before I respond to another useless series of ridiculous diatribes, that always become longer and longer. 🙂

Also what should happen to all confederate monuments?

What should happen to other monuments related to people who fought the Indians that have been targets of the extreme minority for removal.

Founding fathers who were slave owners called for removal?

You are wonderful for criticism and support for these, what are your solutions?

"The dead have no problems, but the living do." John Gray.

35th, I admire your efforts to make sense of Charge's ramblings, but it is not worth it to me.

35th, I admire your efforts to make sense of Charge's ramblings, but it is not worth it to me.

You need to conserve your energy to go into byzantine details about how we cant condemn the entire CSA because its COMPLICATED. Apparently youll go down swinging to save one innocent Confederate

Somewhat understandably, this thread trended away from the OP but I went back to the original article doc posted because I wondered if this writer had stepped outside and looked around.

We are just not in a state of collapse.

"I find the idea that you are only allowed to object to something if you were actually there jaw dropping. I don't have to have been in Auschwitz to know it was A Bad Thing. Nor do I have to have been a slave to know that slavery is A Bad Thing."

Not at all. But people who weren't at the unveiling and weren't alive when they were dedicated are telling us why they were put up. They ignore what was said by the people who were there to impugn the motivations of the people who put them up.

"Subject: Some Bird Names Are Changing Because They're 'Exclusionary,' 'Harmful'"

I find this to be hilarious. After all, the Blue Footed Boobie has no idea it's called a Blue Footed Boobie.

"The answer would be compromise, but we have lately disallowed that as a response to any issue, even though our freedom depends on it."

I wish it was that easy Tort. I don't think it is, and I'll tell you why.

I've followed the gun/2nd Amendment debate for decades. I've seen many, many laws passed to curb 'gun violence'. For example; assault weapon ban, Saturday Night Special ban, complete bans, ammo bans, suing gun makers, universal back ground checks, bump stock ban, extra taxes, taxes on ammo, mandated insurance, etc. Some of these were passed with help from across the aisle, you know…compromise.

However, after all these laws were enacted the subjects on the other side of the debate never said, "Well, thanks for the compromise. We didn't get all that we wanted, but we got some of it. Let's see how it works out." No, they always have said, "We wanted X, we got Y, now we want X and Z." Compromise is no longer two sides trying to get along and govern as best they can, it's now death by a thousand cuts and it is clear it's a waste of time. As a side note it appears to me that it has nothing to do with actually making our streets safer. Everywhere the other side gets their way, New York, California, Chicago, etc., crime is out of control and their theories are proven wrong, but they keep pushing for them.

But that's just my observation.

"Let's be honest, I wasn't asked anything,"

Actually I asked you several times who you supported. You refused to condemn pure evil and that tells me all I need to know.

"Speaking of fanaticism, would you like to relate why you have this monolithic, unassailable support for Jews and Israel? Do you have a dog in this fight somehow?"

Translation: "Are you really a Jew spewing their propaganda?"

Personally, I support Israel because they're in the right. They've been attacked over and over and over again. When they aren't driven into the sea and murdered the Left then starts screaming that they need to give up and give their enemies everything they couldn't win militarily.

"Ben Shapiro's argument is that you need to fight genocide with genocide?"

What genocide? The Israelis have not started rounding up and killing Arabs. They've had many, many chances to do so since 1948, but they never have. Yet any Jew who falls into any Arab terrorist hands is going to die. Hamas calls for genocide of Jews in it's charter. That is evil on display and you can't tell which side is right, and which is evil. That's a sad indictment of the West.

"Even though this strategy proved ineffective long before the end of the war"

Actually, the killing of civilians, as horrible as it was, ended the war and saved lives in the long run. The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the shock needed to end the war.