"Putting old aircraft back into production?" Topic

For argument's sake, Britain decides it can't actually afford any F-35s for the two aircraft carriers.

Instead it is decided that the Sea Harrier and the Buccaneer will be put back into production.

Assuming the tools still exist that is, and that avionics can be updated.

Could this actually be done, or would they be too obsolete to risk at sea?

I understood that the UK sold all spare Harrier airframes, engines and spare parts to the US. That probably included any assembly jigs.

The Buccaneer is a much older story.

Modern avionics wouldn't be too difficult though.

Nice idea.

The American F-15 first flew in 1972 (51 years)! It is still a top-notch combat aircraft, today. Avionics have changed, drastically, but the airframe is mostly the same.

The American B-52 Bomber is still flying, since entering service in 1955 (68 years). It, too, has gone through a lot of changes in avionics. Not sure about the Sea Harrier or the Buccaneer, but some plane designs have endured for decades, with avionics and some engine updates. Cheers!

It depends how much in the way of components is left. I would be surprised if any meaningful tooling is left. What low cost export planes are out there? That might be a more viable option.

The airframes would have the same performance characteristics today as they did when they were first introduced. You would need to look at the intended missions and the suitability for that aircraft to perform that mission in light of the current threats and operating environment. For instance a P-51 Mustang would not be considered a first-line fighter today, but variants of the Mustang airframe have been considered for the counter-insurgency (COIN) mission, which is basically a light attack aircraft in a permissive environment.

There weren't any jigs etc at all before Harrier and Buccaneer went into production, so anything is possible.

However, rather like phone manufacturers, weapons producers prefer to sell shiny new stuff, with very expensive maintenance contracts.

I doubt MOD procurement would even manage to get the Swordfish back in production though, as apparently they can't even manage a simple APC.

Even if you had the tooling and even if the fuselage could accommodate modern available engines, I doubt a skilled enough workforce is readily available without a very extensive recruitment and retraining. Equipping the airframes with current tech engines would be a must as those older engines would likely be harder to reproduce than the airframes themselves.

With the advent of sophisticated 3D printing, how long will it be before it is possible to ‘print' the fuselage and other parts of a reproduction/new aircraft?

It struck me as an interesting idea because as others have noted above, the performance of fast jets basically topped out about 50 or 60 years ago, and hasn't got materially better. So if the same airframes with modern – hence adequately supported – engines and avionics could be put back into production, you might have a viable fighter.

It is a bit like those people who will build you a brand new E-Type Jaguar for £250,000.00 GBP

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If it's a choice between a carrier with a full air group of 40-plus Buccaneers and Harriers, or one with a handful of F-35s that don't actually work properly, you might find that quantity has a quality all its own, as it were.

Getting rid of Harrier was a ludicrous decision. Internal Fast Jet wars in the MOD. I also knew a very bitter ex Nimrod ASW pilot.

If they want old airframes what about Typhoons?

Afterall Typhoons are about 30 years old already.

The RN couldn't afford to install catapults on the new carriers so the old aircraft like Buccaneer wouldn't be able to take off. The Harrier being VTOL wouldn't have that problem but it's inferior in every way to the F-35 and building new tooling to reproduce new airframes would likely drive the cost per airframe above that of just purchasing more F-35s.

Also bear in mind the UK GDP is less per capital than the US state of Mississippi. There are definitely limits to the what the UK MoD can afford.

Drones are the future.

You know, my first thought would be to see what the US wants for F-18's salted away at Davis-Monthan, and how much upgrading the avionics would cost. Takeoff distance for the F-18 is pretty close to the new carriers' flight decks. Then there's the ramp and sailing into the wind.

But the costs of the F-35 have been exagerated a bit. If we quoted the costs of operating and maintaining cars for their expected service lives as their unit cost, most of us would think cars were unaffordable.

Unless they mothballed the factory when they stopped production they would be starting from scratch with the production line. If they are going to build a new production line it might as well be for up to date aircraft.

Alternatively, they could shop across the Channel. The Dassault Rafale already has a naval version, which gives full satisfaction on the Charles de Gaulle.