"rheostat or on/off switch?" Topic

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Many leaders and thinkers see war as an adjustable rheostat: the violence is increased or decreased as perceived necessary to bring the other side "to the table." (Vietnam was waged like that, one big reason we lost.)

Walter Russel Mead's Jacksonians (I'm not one, exactly, but sympathize) see war as an on or off switch. WWII was like that. You do not go to war unless it is really really necessary, but if you must, you do, and then you drop everything else and devote full attention and apply UNRESTRAINED violence until the enemy is destroyed -- unconditional surrender.

This is what Israel must now do with Hamas.

While I kinda of aggree, Unfortunatelly this final solution is not christian answer. It opens the a pandora's box.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PJ_Media

If you have a threat that is only getting worse and there is no way to lessen the threat, and you have the means to eliminate the threat. Total war is the only solution.

"It's not the Christian answer"

Jews are not Christians. Does not apply. For that matter neither is the other side and they sure as hell did not follow Christian principles on October 7th and they killed 30 plus US citizens!

""It's not the Christian answer"

Jews are not Christians. Does not apply."

That begs an interesting question. Should Christians not worry about what the Jews do, because they're Jews; or should they at least wish it were not so, and council for a more Christian-like response? And what might that even mean or look like?

Has there ever been a 'Christian nation' that acted in a totally Christian way to a threat or attack?

"Has there ever been a 'Christian nation' that acted in a totally Christian way to a threat or attack?"

And survived?

did not follow Christian principles on October 7th

Principles no, common practices yes. See Jerusalem 1099, Beziers 1209, Magdeburg 1239, Fort Pillow 1864, Dresden and Hiroshima/Nagasaki 1945, My Lai 1968. Even Hitler claimed to be a Christian although his views seemed very changeable.

Christians have no monopoly on senseless bigoted violence as every other religion on earth has an equally horrid record whenever power and opportunity have intersected during war.

The needs of the State are almost always separate and easily ignored from whatever religion is the dominant one but the one universal truth is that whatever religious beliefs are espoused, they are immediately abandoned during war in favor of convenience be they Christian, Islamic, Buddhist, Hindu or whatever. Judaism has had the misfortune/blessing(?) to rarely if ever had the intersection of power and opportunity to enable behavior equally horrid to match the other great religions.

Were Israel to lay down their arms, they would cease to exist.

Were the Palestinians to lay down their arms and agree to live with Israel, there would be peace.

No religion involved, just the facts on the ground although every parties version of God keeps getting in the way.

UNRESTRAINED violence

That would be a war crime.

So was Curtis LeMay a war criminal? or Sherman?

As to Christianity and war, remember that we hold that rulers are raised up by God and given the sword. Paul commanded the church to pray for the emperor -- who was a pagan.

Whether pacifism is acceptable as an individual matter is debatable, but there is really no question either from scripture or from history that Christian rulers not only can but MUST use force -- violence or threat of violence -- to protect those over whom they rule. Recall that it was the church that developed the Just War doctrine.

Paul in Romans chapter 13:

13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

+1 doc and Mckinstry. Israel has to eliminate HAMAS. Of course, that does not mean genocide. This is war. Israel must follow the rules. And that means do their best to minimize civilian casualties. But if HAMAS puts military targets next to refugee camps or hospitals, they can be attacked.

I think if the Nazis in WW2 had had social media, we'd have lost.

pzivh43 +1 …

If God is raising up rulers, he is doing an appallingly bad job of it, pretty much regardless of which ruler and which God is involved. Giving any of those cretins a sword, much less far nastier stuff, is very poor decision making.

I more lean to free will resulting in ugly behavior because people who actually want to rule usually shouldn't be within a time zone of actual rule.

" The last person you want to put in charge is the person who most wants to be in charge "

There's plenty in the Hebrew scriptures about God cursing a people with bad rulers.

But if you don't like divine right, how do you like democratic theory? NO ruler can continue without at least the tacit consent of the people. If a people gets the rulers they deserve -- aren't the Palestinians as responsible for the atrocities as Hamas?

…aren't the Palestinians as responsible for the atrocities as Hamas?

Given that Hamas stopped having elections…

But they still possess the right of revolution.

A mass of poor people crammed into a squalid environment; at least a third of them kids; barely subsisting; kept under heel by a large number of heavily armed violent thugs.
But they still possess the right of revolution. Right.
Arm-chair generalship at it's most deluded.

and also trained to hate Jews, don't forget that.

But you confuse the RIGHT to do something with the ABILITY to do it.

That the Gazans are helpless pawns of Hamas is clear enough. But their "innocence" is not so clear.

The Israelis have the same moral obligation towards the Palestinian civilians as the Allies had towards the German civilians: do not kill more than necessary to destroy the evil regime. The Schweinfurt raids were clearly moral, Dresden far more problematical. Yet the German people plainly bear SOME responsibility for Hitler. The inhabitants of Dresden were victims, but not innocent ones.

Anyone can attempt to overthrow their oppressors. They may lose, but they can try. My ancestors could have lost, but they tried and were successful. I have little sympathy for those who don't make the attempt, but instead flee to places like Europe and the US. Can you count on them to fight for their new country, run or worse, collaborate?

IMO the bottom line … again … What Hamas did to 1400 Jews on 07 Oct. 2023 was inexcusable. It was not war it was mass murder. So, no matter what this barbarity was wrong on so many levels for so many reasons. Yes, the Palestinian people may be suffering. Being under the boots of Hamas. As long as Hamas, Iran, and some other moslem nations want to kill all Jews. Don't even try to live in mutual consistence nothing will ever change. Many from Gaza worked in Israel … Do they go to work every day and hate ?

20% of Israel is not Jewish. They are mostly moslem and Christian. They seem to mostly coexist with the Jews of Israel. That should be the model …

Many Palestinians do not want a 2-state solution … but it may be the only way to have Peace. As many of the Arabs who fought 4 wars with Israel, lost in many cases, many men, much equipment, etc. It may be better to coexist than going to war. E.g. Egypt and Jordan, they are not BFFs with Israel, but they are not shooting at each other either. The Jews in Israel are not going anywhere.

The only other option is forever wars … like we see in Gaza …

Good points … but we can't put today's moralities, standards, etc., on the past even if that past was only almost 80 years ago.

Yes, we have to learn from history. That is paramount. The West today does not target non-combatants if at all possible. The West tries to mitigate CD from occurring as SOP. As opposed to what we see, i.e. islamic terrorists, and the Russians currently target civilians.