"best operational level rules" Topic

Okay thanks for the input folks on the "granular" rules query, got some good suggestions there, though in the process of that i think it became clearer what i like – the operational level games.

Neuschwerpunkt from Peter F Model I think is a good contender but its scale is 1 turn equals 1 day, which is interesting nevertheless, however what other operational level rules are there . is this something that works well for ww2 games? or is it actually far more common than not – i honestly dont know, having so far unfamiliarity with the majority of ww2 rulesets

I am thinking something like Et Sans Resultat but for WW2, or perhaps something like Microprose's 1944 Across the Rhine

A couple that come to mind and in no particular order are:

Panzer Corps
Rommel
Spearhead
Mega Blitz

In my mind ESR is a grand tactical game, not an operational one. Grand Tactical to me is the entire battle in one game – so a game that covers the whole of Borodino, Gettysburg or Minden.

In WW2 battles are more campaign like. The Battle of the Bulge lasts weeks and covers an area 100 miles by 50 or so.

At that scale I found boardgames were a better fit. You need a stand to be a division, with occasional smaller units like engineers.

thats interesting – yes i guess boardgames are better, – i guess i like the boardgame scales, but as a miniatures game and not using hex grids or such

I referred to ESR as operational as thats how it describes itself – perhaps it takes that description because it seems to start its battles with units in marching to the battle area in their various divisions – so perhaps its not agood example

the four suggestions are good thanks – though have never heard of Mega Blitz before

Megablitz:
link

Rommel is excellent, and operational level. Megablitz looked promising but had so many holes it was unplayable. No doubt if the author was to hand it would give a good game. Just a couple of examples; you can conduct recce but the distance it works is nowhere stated. It is not clear how close you can move to enemy. Can you zip between two units if your stand just fits? There is a lot of that sort of vagueness

ah okay – damn Megablitz actually sounds perfect otherwise, exactly what i had in mind. I see the website link is just support material really, the full rules are not there so one would have to buy the rule book on ebay or something yes? or are the full rules somewhere online to buy as a pdf or something – that would be preferable

in the meanwhile i will look at Rommel

Kampfgruppe Commander III

I agree with Dexter regarding Megablitz. I've read the rules multiple times, but I can't figure it out. It kind of reminds me of a player aid that the GM provides at a convention game. There's a lot of stuff there, but unless you actually know the rules, there is only so much you can do with the reference sheet.

okay i found some great info on operational games from the baloogan archives blog – one of the free rule sets (i am assuming its a free set?) is Panzergruppe

Unfortunately the link on the baloogan archives page is broken

might someone here on the forum have a copy of these rules and be kind enough to provide them?

Operation Brevity by Phil Yates (of Flames of War) has what you need. Each stand is a battalion and a day is broken into a couple of turns.

Plenty of scope to bolt on some house rules too.

link

The main actual operational rules I've played are Megablitz, DivCom, NQM (Not Quite Mechanised) and my own Panzergruppe. KISS Rommel is an honourable contender too, although more on the abstract side.

All five handle multiple divisions/corps/armies and can encompass multiple days.

DivCom is designed for massive (20+ player) mega games with teams of umpires, so not much good for regular play.

NQM is free, always a good price point, just download it off the website. Chris has just published a new version.

Megablitz you will have to hunt around for. The game works fine and I've played it loads of times. I do know the author, which helps, but I also run games using my own idiosyncratic interpretations.

Wrt recce, just think of it as light cavalry in DBA, it floats around in a screen in front of everything else. Slipping it through tiny gaps I would regard as unsporting.

KISS Rommel is also free, and very clever and simple system. Endlessly plagiarised by other rules which I won't name.

Panzergruppe is mine, I bumped up the scale to one base per brigade, which is handy if you are doing the whole of Operation Goodwood in an evening. You should be able to download it off my blog (The Games We Play), but Google has been messing around with the file sharing options of late. There are also various accounts of Megablitz, Panzergruppe, NQM and maybe even KISS Rommel games on there.

Operation Brevity has some very clever ideas, but also some stuff I really don't agree with, but it is certainly worth a look. I played it a few times and moved on to other things.

If you want tight 400 page, rules lawyer friendly, competition ready rules sets packed with photos and diagrams, don't bother with any of these rules. They are all designed to be played in a gentlemanly manner between sensible people, ideally with an umpire.

Another set I did come across was Assault Gun, but they are essentially a Megablitz clone, albeit with infantry modelled as regiments, not battalions.

Martin, your answer about recce is exactly what I got when I asked the author years ago, but it doesn't answer the question. At what distance from friendly units does recce operate? Do you have to be in contact? Is it an inch? How far away from your own units can you conduct recce?
Another area that is very unclear is the handling of strength 0 units.
I also always found the game hard to play without an umpire, because of the way the combat system works.

wow thanks Martin – i will check your blog for the rules

Operation Brevity sounds ideal too, never heard of it before nor NQM or DivCom

I am not looking necessarily for competition ready rules or rules with photos and diagrams – but something definitely that can be done solo and certainly that doesnt require an umpire, too.

i disovered some rules in development that look amazing and for 2mm scale i think GBB is their name

Hi Martin – you are right about the google issues – i am trying to download pzgruppe now from you site and i can open it in googledrive, but the damned thing just wont download at all. google is just so crappy nowadays

okay success, i got the rules – so for Panzergruppe is it hexes or grids – each hex is 5-10kms? – this is feeling a bit similar to Neuschwerpunkt rules then actually

I like that these rules wouldnt need more than a dining table for space which is what i am always looking for

"At what distance from friendly units does recce operate? Do you have to be in contact? Is it an inch?"

Bear in mind the ground scale. At 1:25000 1km is 4cm, at 1:50000 1km is only 2cm. How far can a man with bins see? I'd suggest no more than 0.5km at best so that would be 1 or 2cm depending on the ground scale you are using. To all intents and purposes it's probably just easier to say the recce unit must be in contact with the opposing stands or terrain feature.

"How far away from your own units can you conduct recce?"

The rules do not specify any distance, but any recce unit that is on it's own several kms ahead of the rest is not likely going to last very long …

I moved to a grid for Panzergruppe about 15 years ago, they solved more problems than they caused;) I do miss the random movement in the ruler based version though. My old Sinai 1967 game is the precursor and uses rulers, that is also on my blog somewhere.

Wrt Megablitz recce, I let one recce company recce a regimental size unit. Move it into contact with one of the elements and roll away. If the enemy counter recces, I usually assume they cancel out to speed things up, unless both players really, really want to have a recce combat.

At nightfall, the recce units have to laager back to Div HQ, as do armoured units and cavalry. Which stops them floating around miles away from anyone else.

I didnt bother with recce in Panzergruppe f as the formations are divisions. They have hidden strength, so you find out how good they are by fighting them. In some scenarios (mainly desert ones), I model recce formations as separate units. Panzer recce battalions 3 and 33 were often used as combat units for screening.

do you think Panzergruppe or Megablitz could work fine for solo wargaming? they are both sounding very appealing

- i think these two and Spearhead are the 3 i want to hone on

but just wondering lastly – what about Command Decision?

and anyone familiar with an old ruleset called "Fire Brigade" ?

Command Decision is at a much lower level (platoon size elements) same as Spearhead.
In operational rules like Rommel or Megablitz the only thing with ranged fire is artillery.

okay no worries – well i think they may not be operation but still offer a level that appeals to me – spearhead claims to be division level

If we look at scale from the point of view of the size of the formation a player can command. If we assume an operational scale represents something that allows you to command 3 to 6 divisions, while being able to complete a game in a day, we have the following rules;
KISS Rommel (very simple)
MEGABLITZ (These have potential, but some rework may be required)
DIVISIONAL COMMANDER (Very hard to get a copy)
Assault Gun v1.4 (free rules)
DBA-WWII (ery chess like)
D-Day to Berlin v2,v3,v4, v5 (Good rules, but require grids)
BLOODY BIG BATTLES WWII (These have a lot of potential)
Corps Level Combat Actions (Profession rules, but I have never used them)
Neu-Schwerpunkt (SPI MKodern Battles Boardgame)
BREAKTHROUGH (A lot of hype but the rules never appeared)
PanzerGruppe 2.2 (free rules, but not complete)

Spearhead allows you to command a brigade over 8-12 Game-turns in a day, i feel if you want to command a division you need three players per side. Unless of course we are talking about very small divisions.

If you wish to command a division then I would look at the following rules;
Corps Commander (Very complex)
GREAT BATTLES OF WWII Vol 1 (Hard to find a copy of the rules)
Div Tac (Club rules)
SCHWEREPUNKT (The original rules by Pete Blockley, these have potential)
LIGHTNING WAR RED STORM (These would be my go to free rules at this scale)
PANZER KORPS (These are very good rules, well supported , lots of scenarios – very good)
Field of Battle : WWII (These have real potential)
Not Quite Mechanised (requires umpires)
5 Core brigade commander (new rules, have not studied them yet)
Rapid Fire Reloaded (At company scale these look very good)

thanks PFModel

- where can i find Div Tac?
Also never heard of the Great Battles of WW2 rules

Corps Commander
Lightning War Red Storm
and
Schwerepunkt are all provided on the Kriegspiel et al groups yes?
I get them all a bit confused as i think Lightning War Red Storm is the subtitle for one of theose sets and is Schwerepunkt unrealted to Neuschwerpunkt?

I have come across also WW2 Abteilung from Peter pig games and Ed Texeiras "Nuts Big Battles" now also – i like that these do not require one to field too many actual miniatures for a game at a higher level.

what do you know about Combat HQ? WW2 Micro Armor, WW2 Fields of Honour, and

Great Battles of World War II rules are pretty good. I got a copy about 10 years ago but not sure of current availability.

TMP link

Update:
This looks hopeful:
link

yes that Division commander rules and the supplements are certainly on my wish list now – now too many rules options at the kind of scale i was after!

If you do a google search on pdfcoffee.com_divisional-tac-pdf-free you will find the site. Its from the Wrexham Miniature Wargamers club. This is the direct link
link

This is the link to Great Battles of WWII
link

LWRS & Bewungskrieg are the same rules, only different format. The rules were created by Andrew Stevenson.
It is not related to Schwerpunkt or Neu-Schwerepunkt.

SCHWEREPUNKT are an old set of rules designed by Pete Blockley. It has no links to neu-Schwerepunkt

Neu-Schwerepunkt is a figure game version of the SPI Modern battles game system.

COMBAT HQ and MICRO ARMOUR –THE GAME, WWII uses a scale of each element is a platoon.

These videos provide an overview of rules by scale;
This is the Battalion (equals an element) scale version;
youtu.be/uj9JtHUyWSQ

A new set of rules in development at the scale you seem to be emphasizing here is Breakthrough. Each stand is a battalion, and there are two day turns and a night turn. The designer, Frank Chadwick, designed Command Decision (which of course is much more granular, with each stand representing a platoon). Anyway, keep an eye open for Breakthrough.

Anyway, keep an eye open for Breakthrough.

Any idea when it will be out, last i heard was 2021 and its 2023 now, so its clearly been delayed.